RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts  
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> RC Warbirds and Warplanes >> RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts
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RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/27/2004 10:25:52 PM   
gow589


 

Posts: 674
Joined: 8/4/2004
From: evansville, IN, USA
Status: offline 		Bill, the depth perception is why it is easy to see you track in a pull up because you can't see it when it goes by. I have built 3 Ziroli bearcats:

http://www.rc-tech.net/gear/firsta.jpg

I have been flying them with clipped wings and about 8 inch ailerons which means everything has to be right. My 2 Bearcats are about 32-34lbs wings clipped from 86" to 74". The Ziroli Bearcat will jump up on you. The first one I flew, the first flight took full down trim and 1/2 stick deflection down to make it fly level. Too much down elevator is no problem. Too much right rudder is no problem (for first take offs). After seeing many people (including myself) screw up airplanes with and because of zero elevator and zero rudder, I always add a bit more becasue, like I said, too much is not an issue.

When are you going to fly the Bearcat? Are oyu getting close?

Gary

(in reply to Warbirdz01)
       Post #: 26

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 12:33:59 AM   
SpitfireMKI



Posts: 1463
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: RAF Turnhouse 603 Squadron, MD, USA
Status: offline 		Warbirdz01, I feel you're talking down a little, I am keeping scale in mind, I fly giant too, my Ziroli P-40's tail is teeny, the Vailly T-bolt not much better when you step back and look at em'. The P-40 is always said to be a real pilot eater. I love mine, Nick did a great job with it's design. The T-bolt flies like a gyroscopic rock, no nasties at all.

On grass neither one will leap before they're ready. It's all a matter of starting with elevator and slowly easing it up as speed builds. The tail will come up. At that point you should gently come to neutral and continue with the throttle. Once the mains get light, just ease it up, no fuss.

I don't have bearcat time so, no opinion.

I would have thought Ziroli would have worked out incidence problems when designed though. Being it's a model and not the actual piece and his designs being known for their excellent flight characteristics.

I have always set my yaw by flying on a wind free day and flying straight towards me and straight away. For me, I feel it is easy to pick up the pull. I'll try gow589's tech next time out.

I have read gow589's stories and shudder. I've never had any problems like these. I always start with my controls zeroed and do a couple of test runs and then fly the plane. I've flown some pretty sorry wrecks that their owner called a nice planes too. I started with R/C and am working on Full scale. Maybe this is why ?

gow589, when I think about your technique now it's making sense, the first part of the climb, nose up with speed, I can see that there should be no deviation. However, at the top airspeed (Unless highly powered) will drop calling for rudder. My P-40 flies very scale, it has a sachs 4.2 and a lousy prop and is 30+ with fuel. It likes rudder about half way up the climb, and at the top, roll from inverted, pull back throttle for the downline. Here, like you said, airspeed is a little lower, so in comes rudder correction.

If I was completely overpowered, the lack of rudder at highspeeds is a little clearer.

S1

_____________________________

"What madness ? What secrets ? We Plunder,
All failure, We learn from.... Discovery"

(in reply to gow589)
       Post #: 27

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 12:52:32 AM   
gow589


 

Posts: 674
Joined: 8/4/2004
From: evansville, IN, USA
Status: offline 		Warbirdz01, yes, speed is your friend, especially on the first flight of an overweight warbird. My brother an I were screwing around one time with a dolar store 6' foam glider and an .049. We found it had a bad left turning tendancy. It could not be overcome in a climb. You had to maintain level flight for nearly a full minute before you had the aileron authority (no rudder) to counter it. It seemed so simple at the time. When you fly twins it is the same thing. If you loose an engine, you have to keep your speed up or the engine will over control the airplane. If you get too slow you simply reduce the power on the good engine and lower the nose to pick up speed till you can control it again.

I flew for the airlines a little (but it did not work out with some of the things going on in my life). One of the the things we trained for was a hard over rudder. This trainig came from the 737 crash in Pitsburg. They aparently had a rudder hard over. What do you do? Same thing as we did with the glider. Power up, get the nose down and get some airspeed. If you can get the ailerons to work you can get the airplane rotated so the rudder is holding you up and not pushing you down. Let's hope the FA are not serving anything at the time.

Gary

(in reply to SpitfireMKI)
       Post #: 28

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 12:54:24 AM   
gow589


 

Posts: 674
Joined: 8/4/2004
From: evansville, IN, USA
Status: offline 		I said the ailerons on the Bear are about 8" I just went out and measured them. A hair under 7".

G

(in reply to gow589)
       Post #: 29

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 1:30:23 AM   
SpitfireMKI



Posts: 1463
Joined: 7/6/2002
From: RAF Turnhouse 603 Squadron, MD, USA
Status: offline 		The twin example really puts your idea into perspective. Getting the speed up makes the vertical surface more effective thus reducing the yaw. Makes sense.

You really ought to put some wings on your GeeCat, I mean bearBee, ok, bearcat.

THX

_____________________________

"What madness ? What secrets ? We Plunder,
All failure, We learn from.... Discovery"

(in reply to gow589)
       Post #: 30

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 1:43:12 AM   
gow589


 

Posts: 674
Joined: 8/4/2004
From: evansville, IN, USA
Status: offline 		It's amazing how someone can get in over their head some times. It's one of those projects have questioned every since I started it.

G

(in reply to SpitfireMKI)
       Post #: 31

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 9:26:14 AM   
Richard L.



Posts: 8775
Joined: 7/28/2002
From: Redmond, WA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MeanMustang
Richard, the videos are great! Shows that I can't floor the throttle and expect to lift off in 30 feet. Your P40 took a much longer dist - looked like over 60 feet to take off.


Our runway is around 300 feet long. If you go back and watch the video again, you will notice that the P-40 took around 3/4th of the runway to take off, maybe even longer. I did that on purpose because I always tried to do scale take offs. My P-40 is powered by a YS 110 four stroke, which can yank the plane off the ground in about 15 feet and pull it straight up out of sight. The nice thing about scale take off is that if the engine decides to flame out right after the plane is off the ground, then you would have enough airspeed to glide the plane back down. If you force the plane off the ground prematurely and the engine dies, then the plane will drop straight back down like a rock.

(in reply to MeanMustang)
       Post #: 32

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 2:50:13 PM   
Warbirdz01


 

Posts: 232
Joined: 1/15/2004
From: Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Status: offline 		S1.....I would "Never" want to be construed as "talking down"......were all just in a hobby for fun...........thats the purpose....just to have fun.....I think the smaller airplanes are just as important as the bigger ones.....I just don't own any.........I flew the smaller models to get to the bigger ones......like most everyone else..........and I leave the the technical info on them for those who have been flying them......and the P-47...as you mention.....about as solid a plane as you can fly..........Nick Sr was an engineer for Grumman for many years............so I'm sure he knows about as much as most anyone about those planes.......and probably attempted to remain as close to scale as feasible,,,,remember....most of his plans have been out for atleast 20 years.......Gary.....3 of us in our warbird group just about ready to test fly.......a Pica P-40....88" W/S.....a Cactus Aviation TigerCat....120" W/S with 2 Brison 5.8's ...and my "Z" Bearcat..........with a Q-75.........Bill......

(in reply to Richard L.)
       Post #: 33

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 8:57:05 PM   
gow589


 

Posts: 674
Joined: 8/4/2004
From: evansville, IN, USA
Status: offline 		Bill let us know how the first flights go. I would especially like to hear about the Bearcat. What are you using for gear? I have 2 of the Brison 5.8's. Great engine.

Gary

(in reply to Warbirdz01)
       Post #: 34

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/28/2004 9:20:34 PM   
gow589


 

Posts: 674
Joined: 8/4/2004
From: evansville, IN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Warbirdz01

S1.....I would "Never" want to be construed as "talking down"......were all just in a hobby for fun...........thats the purpose....just to have fun.....I think the smaller airplanes are just as important as the bigger ones.....



I have found some of the smaller ones to take more skill. I have a Giantscaleplanes.com 96" P-51. Before I test flew it, I warmed up on an old Top Flight P-47; the small one. It takes a lot of skill to get that darn thing down the runway straight. The large P-51 was actually a lot easier and would make anyone look good. I was doing some wheel touch and goes and it was like flying a Cadalac. Often the smaller airplanes require more skill.

G

(in reply to Warbirdz01)
       Post #: 35

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 7/3/2005 8:32:53 AM   
braydan


 

Posts: 27
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Pensacolaescambia, USA
Status: offline 		not shor if this post is still open but i understand that you are asking question on landing your bird.
well lets start with this.

hi im frog lets leave it at that im 72 and i flew the f4u-1a and 4 and 5 then the f9f well lets see if i might be of some help.
the landing in a mustang take about 5 mins on final so at your scale it should take about 1 min 30 something seconds.
bring it in slow and level gear and flaps. use very little throtle. bring the nose up to about 15 degrins picht this will bring all the gear on a level plane.hold that and use speed for you desent about 5 feet from the runway keep useing very little of the throtle to keep it in the air at that point you should be about two feet off the ground. by the time you get over the runway you should be about 2 inches off the ground cut the throttle and let the plane glide to the ground and thier a safe and scale landing


LT. frog
usmc

(in reply to gow589)
       Post #: 36

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 7/3/2005 11:43:23 AM   
LDM


 

Posts: 5301
Joined: 5/29/2003
From: Denver, PA,
Status: offline 		Adding all this advice up is fantastic , I had one more piece that was given to me , buy a used one first from a trust worthy source that is not too expensive , dont become emotionally bonded to the plane , and get the flying characterics from the seller . A club is a great place to do this . Typically a good war bird pilot will work out trim /balance and other problems with the plane so you can trust the setttings will be correct . Again I am not talking about a $1500 expense but there are plenty out there from $400 to $600 all ready to go depending on the extras .

_____________________________

LDM

(in reply to braydan)
       Post #: 37

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 7/3/2005 4:12:33 PM   
Richard L.



Posts: 8775
Joined: 7/28/2002
From: Redmond, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Speaking of taking off and landing a Mustang, here are some of my take off and landing videos:

* P-51D Take Off
* P-51D Take Off

* P-51D Landing
* P-51D Landing

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Tamiya Panther, Tamiya King Tiger(3), Tamiya Tiger I, HL Tiger(3), HL Panzer III(2), HL Panther, HL Pershing, HL Bulldog, WSN T-34/85, HE Leopard 2A5

(in reply to braydan)
       Post #: 38

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 7/3/2005 6:38:11 PM   
scalebldr


 

Posts: 541
Joined: 11/8/2002
From: allenstown, NH, USA
Status: offline 		depends if the flap section is acting like airlerons with computer mixing during flight then just as flaps during landing.if they are not,the airlerons would be less effective due to half the area being used and may require more deflection to the point where induced drag will cause an opposite yaw.one thing to remember on the maiden flight during take off and landing.if a wing tip drops it is usually the first sign of a stall and snap.nose down and rudder correction first then slowly add power.try to keep from using airlerons to keep the wings level as they will make things worse.

(in reply to MeanMustang)
       Post #: 39

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 7/3/2005 7:53:39 PM   
270win


 

Posts: 858
Joined: 1/12/2005
From: Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Status: offline 		If you plant to fly alot of warbirds you'll find they all fly differently. I personally never flair a warbird to a 3 point landing. I make sure to land mains first feeding in just enough up elevator to slow the plane but not enough to lift the mains off the ground again. It's a good habit to get into that will pay off with all heavier or more scale models.

How you takeoff varies greatly with your runway surface. In