Warbird Do's and Don'ts

Warbird Do's and Don'ts
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Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 11:09:21 AM

MeanMustang

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From: Perth, AUSTRALIA
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On the verge of completing my Mustang and I've been told that warbirds take off and land differently from other planes. So I've decided to ask all of u warbird experts what I should look out for during my maiden flight. Do they lift off like any other low wing tail-dragger? Should I keep a little down elevator to keep the plane from tipping forward on the take off run if the runway is bumpy? Do they do axial rolls? During turns, do they lose altitude suddenly and require lots of up elevator? What to do when landing (no flaps) - aim for a 3 point landing with flair or just come in level without flair? Your answers would be most helpful....

Post #: 1

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 1:41:21 PM

CorsairJock

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From: Parchment, MI, USA
Status: online

Good choice for a topic, I'm sure there will be lots of suggestions before long.

First and formost:
Under no circumstances should a warbird be 'horsed' into the air. Doing so usually results in an uncontrollable torque roll to the left, and subsequent crash. Full scale warbirds are the same. And to expand on that, power needs to be applied carefully anytime the aircraft is at slow speeds, and be ready with the right rudder, If you are not a rudder pilot, you will become one.

Build up plenty of speed for the takeoff, and rotate gently, at least until you get the feel of it.

Good luck

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RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 3:06:21 PM

Richard L.

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From: Redmond, WA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MeanMustang

Do they lift off like any other low wing tail-dragger?

Not really, at least not the ones that I've flown. Like CorsairJock has said, you don't want to force a warbird off the ground. I just witnessed a maiden flight on an H9 .60 size Mustang yesterday at the field. The pilot jammed on the throttle a the beginning, and the plane lifted off prematurely and almost spiraled into the ground. What you want to do is hold full up elevator while gradually advance throttle until the plane starts to roll. Once the plane is rolling and picking up speed, gradually release the elevator while continue to increase throttle to let the tail come up. Use rudder, mostly right rudder, to keep the plane going straight down the runway. You might still need to hold some up elevator to keep the tail level with the ground. Once the plane has reached flying speed, it will usually lift off by itself. Taking off a warbird will become second nature after a while. You should always try to aim for scale take off with slow throttle increase and shallow climb out.

Here is a video showing me taking off a P-40: Take Off

Note the gradual throttle advance, the tail coming up with the plane riding on the mains, the use of right rudder to keep the plane going straight, and the shallow climb out.

quote:

Should I keep a little down elevator to keep the plane from tipping forward on the take off run if the runway is bumpy?

This depends on the plane. Some require more up elevator (down stick). Some require less.

quote:

Do they do axial rolls? During turns, do they lose altitude suddenly and require lots of up elevator?

These also depend on the plane.

quote:

What to do when landing (no flaps) - aim for a 3 point landing with flair or just come in level without flair?

If your plane doesn't tip stall, then you can aim for a 3 point landing. Sometimes it might be better to do wheel landing. It's always better to come in hot than to come in too slow and stall. You will need to flair once the plane is just a few feet above the runway.

(in reply to MeanMustang)

Post #: 3

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 3:53:49 PM

Warbirdz01

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Richard....I respectfully disagree with one thing......especially when first test flying a Warbird.......using up elevator while adding power on the T/O roll is trouble......seems many times on first flight....a plane will need additional nose weight....last thing you want to happen is premature rotation and an airplane off the ground virtually stalled.........I prefer putting in a few clicks of elevator downtrim.....forcing the plane to stay on the ground longer...... as I add power I bring the tail up with down elevator and make sure I have plenty of speed before lifting off.......also using a higher landing speed...until I am confortable with the planes flying characteristics.....once I have 10-12 flts or so.....then I will start experimenting with the slow speed characteristics.....first @ higher altitudes to see when controls become "mushy" and imminent stall occurs...........then I can do lots of touch-n-goes and find the "Sweet" spots.........Bill......

(in reply to Richard L.)

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RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 3:57:04 PM

Doug D.

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Richard is spot on for the takeoff poceedures. The video is very good. And don't forget the landings. They are kind of the opposite of the takeoff's. Except you don't use as much rudder unless you have a cross wind.
Practice makes perfect.

(in reply to MeanMustang)

Post #: 5

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 4:41:50 PM

Scar

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From: Peoria Hts, IL, USA
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Lots of good comment, and it's necessary because Warbirds, at least scale ones, are usually a lot heavier than your ordinary sport plane. All the takeoff and landing discussion is because of that.

Which prompts me to comment... If you really want a "warbird" that takes off like a sport plane, and does aerobatics like a sport plane... you might want to get a Great Planes P51 kit and fly it first. That kit is built around the UltraSport wing, and I understand it flies like an UltraSport. Which is not to say that you can horse an UltraSport off the ground, either.

If you want to get a handle on how a Warbird usually flies, take whatever low wing sport talidragger you've been flying, and add enough lead to double the weight, but maintain a reasonable CG. Then fly it, using the same caveats in the other posts. You will find the takeoff speed higher, the response more sluggish, and the landings faster. At speed, you'll still have roll and loop capability, but you will need to set them up a bit more cautiously. When you're comfortable with that, you'll love your Mustang!

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

(in reply to MeanMustang)

Post #: 6

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 4:45:33 PM

Richard L.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warbirdz01

Richard....I respectfully disagree with one thing......especially when first test flying a Warbird.......using up elevator while adding power on the T/O roll is trouble

Note that I said hold up elevator until the plane "starts to roll", then slowly release the elevator. I never said hold up elevator for the entire T/O roll.

Here is another take off: Corsair Take Off

(in reply to Warbirdz01)

Post #: 7

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 4:52:16 PM

Richard L.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doug D.

And don't forget the landings. They are kind of the opposite of the takeoff's.

Speaking of landings, here is the same P-40 landing with 30-degree flaps: P-40 Landing

And here is the same Corsair landing without flaps (it doesn't have any): Corsair Landing

I like landing with flaps much better.

(in reply to Doug D.)

Post #: 8

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 5:42:13 PM

TLH101

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Here is a ton of good info: http://rcwarbirds.com/advisorjack.htm
Just about any question you have will be answered.

_____________________________

Terry
"Old Fart" in training. (not to be an R/Cer, but to be an "Old Fart")

(in reply to Richard L.)

Post #: 9

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 7:39:05 PM

JohnMac

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From: Leeds, UNITED KINGDOM
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Well I think that there is a bit more to it than that from my experience. Different prototypes need different treatment. My FW 109D needed about half right rudder and elevator at the beginning of the roll. Rudder came off gradually and elavator remained unchanged. Any atempt to get the tail up instantly had it over on its nose. Nonetheless take off was fairly straightforward.
My current Spitfire needs full right rudder and full up elevator at the beguinning of the roll. Again the rudder comes off gradually but the elavator must come off fairly quickly lest the circumstance you descibe will arise. In fact it is necessary to transitionfrom back stick to a little forward stick to get the tail up and hold her there. As soon as the tail comes up the rudder bites and then the rudder must be taken off. It all happens very quickly but looks really good when I get it right. I always hold warbirds down whilst I retract gear ( and flaps if used) before climbing in the first turn.
Some of the later warbirds such as the Hawker Tempest had to aim off the runway in order to make sure they still were on the runway by the time it lifted off.
Regards,

John.

(in reply to Warbirdz01)

Post #: 10

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 9:26:44 PM

CraigM

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From: Austin, TX, USA
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Richard,

Those are great videos. What are the sizes of your P-40 and Corsair?

Craig

(in reply to JohnMac)

Post #: 11

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/26/2004 10:04:42 PM

Richard L.

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Thanks Craig. The P-40 is .60 size with a 63" span. The Corsair is .40 size with a 58" span. However, it weighs 9 lbs on my digital postal scale (very heavy wing loading).

(in reply to CraigM)

Post #: 12

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/27/2004 1:12:03 PM

SpitfireMKI

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I Cannot say I've ever pushed the nose down with the elevator on take off on a warbird............on grass that would be a prop.

I have done it with the GP DC3 electric, there's no steerable tailwheel, so you pop the tail up asap and then neutralize the elevator. That way you can steer with the rudder. I don't think the props will hit before the nose does on that puppy.

Advice, If you go to a full scale airshow, you will see the proper way to fly a warbird. From take-off to landing it's all there. Your goal is to duplicate that.

Many 'warbirds' are actually sport planes (My modeltech t-bolt does nice rolling circles) so may not require all the 'advice' you recieve here. I've seen a guy get away with murder on a topflite arf P-51, (very light, no retracts) 90 degree left turns on take off, no tail up, just yank and power out of the stall ! Landings bring a steeplechase to mind.

More scale like planes, (Brian Taylor, Ziroli, Vailly, Yellow, etc) require more discipline on the controls.

With RichardL's advice, you really cannot go wrong.

One thing you must do is correct what needs correcting, don't get into the 'it must use right rudder' fly the plane for what it wants to do. If it pulls right, straighten it, if it wants to nose over add a little more elevator, so on and so on.

Not every plane is perfect, not all are alike, not all will pull left through the whole take-off roll (Majority yes, but not all)

On a new plane, always do some test take off rolls (resist the temptation to put it in the air as quickly as possible), get an idea what it wants to do and then correct from there.

You're clear to taxi onto the active !

S1

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All failure, We learn from.... Discovery"

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Post #: 13

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/27/2004 2:06:20 PM

gow589

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HOW TO TEST FLY THAT WARBIRD:

http://www.rc-tech.net/test/test.htm

Gary

(in reply to SpitfireMKI)

Post #: 14

RE: Warbird Do's and Don'ts - 9/27/2004 4:16:01 PM

SpitfireMKI

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