RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       


The JETLEGEND CT-114 SNOWBIRD OR CAF Color.... SHIPPPING DISCOUNT AVAILABLE .....
Seller:  FlyingboyD
Details:   $1,660.00   |  11/27/2008   |  Classified Ad
We will rotate YOUR AD in this spot if you select "Forum Featured" when placing or editing your ad!

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Aerodynamics >> RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio
Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>  

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 3:18:44 PM   
destructiveTester


 

Posts: 109
Joined: 9/12/2003
From: london, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline
Do you think a composite TAM 5 would vibrate, crack up and crash during 40+ hours of flying?

(in reply to dick Hanson)
       Post #: 51

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 4:11:19 PM   
dick Hanson



Posts: 10192
Joined: 12/12/2001
From: slc, UT, USA
Status: offline
Who knows?
How can you calculate that?
I work with both glass and wood in aerobatic stuf up to 50% scale.
They both have their strong points but I find that degredation of stressed skin on the composites is a tricky thing to predict-and when it fails (and it does) --- it is auf einmal!

_____________________________

I am watching you
Libby

(in reply to destructiveTester)
       Post #: 52

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 5:25:22 PM   
destructiveTester


 

Posts: 109
Joined: 9/12/2003
From: london, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline
I didn't ask you if you could calculate I just asked whether you think it is a consideration for an aircraft that has to last 40 hours of flying or so.

I expect you can calculate it by the way, but that isn't the question!

But as it happens, engineers have to determine fatigue life on components on various vehicles and structures (from Boeings to bridges), so I expect the vibrational effects of an OS61 four stroke on a thin walled composite structure could be predicted.

I was just looking for people's opinions on the working life of composite structured aircraft - the vibrational impact of an OS61 on optimum cruise settings may be less then that of 100-150CC gas engine bolted to an airframe doing competition aerobatics?

(in reply to dick Hanson)
       Post #: 53

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 6:12:16 PM   
dick Hanson



Posts: 10192
Joined: 12/12/2001
From: slc, UT, USA
Status: offline
Did the engineers for the DH Comet calculate how long the aluminum skin would hold up -or did they test it?
My point being - some things look good on paper but the actual results are sometimes real (and nasty) surprises.
First you calculate -then you test.
Then you fly it- a lot.
been there

_____________________________

I am watching you
Libby

(in reply to destructiveTester)
       Post #: 54

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 6:25:54 PM   
destructiveTester


 

Posts: 109
Joined: 9/12/2003
From: london, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline
Dick,

You are acting like I don't think testing matters. Of course it matters. But just because building and testing matters, does not mean that design does not matter! One does not negate the other - both compliment each other. The optimum aircraft is arrived at by an iterative process. The TAM 5 is an illustration of this. This is not a war between those who believe in equations and those who do not! So don't make it into one!

For the 3rd and last time: (without doing any calculations) Do you think a composite TAM 5 would break up in the time it would take to cross the Atlantic?

Because I think you could make one that would go the distance.

< Message edited by destructiveTester -- 10/4/2004 6:32:16 PM >

(in reply to dick Hanson)
       Post #: 55

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 6:56:23 PM   
destructiveTester


 

Posts: 109
Joined: 9/12/2003
From: london, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline
One more thing. The Comet first flew in 1949. 55 years ago. Is your position that because engineers failed to predict fatigue cracks on square windows on this cutting edge (at the time) airliner, we should give up on physics and engineering techniques and use trial and error instead? Even now in the 21st century?

(in reply to destructiveTester)
       Post #: 56

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 7:16:33 PM   
Johng



Posts: 1821
Joined: 1/24/2002
From: Deland, FL, USA
Status: offline
enough sniping, I'm outta here.

_____________________________

John

(in reply to destructiveTester)
       Post #: 57

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 7:44:22 PM   
Montague



Posts: 4653
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Laurel, MD,
Status: offline
I'm not sure how many of you guys have had a look at the plane in person. Maynard brought one of the remaining planes to a club meeting here shortly after the trans-atlantic flight. (not the plane that made it, one of the backups).

One thing to note is that there were many many more than 5 built. I seem to recall the one that made it was actually #23 or something in that range (I forget the actual number, but it was much higher than "5" . Several were lost in crashes or didn't test out well enough in flight trials around here. One is still "missing" in a swap or field around here after crashing during testing. (last I heard it was still missing, who knows, it may have turned up by now).

As I understand it, and listening to the guys on the team talk about it, the airframe design was based far more on Maynards experience than any calculations. Not that they didn't do calculations, but as I understand it, their range calcuations weren't done with forulas, they were done by putting a measured amount of fuel in a tank and using a stop watch to see how long the engine would run, and tests in the air measuring how far the plane would fly in what time and on how much fuel, etc. Very "low tech" really.

And the plane looks very low-tech in person. I'm sure you could cut down on drag quite a bit, and you could probibly build it lighter with composites. Though they did go to some pretty extreme lengths to reduce weight.

I did ask what the airfoil was, but I didn't get a chance to ask Maynard, and the person I asked didn't know, but didn't think there was a lot of time spent on picking a "perfect" airfoil at all.

Looking at the plane in person, the "coolest" part of the engineering by far is actually all the engine work. For every engine that made it in to an airframe, there were several that didn't measure up, or used for parts. It didn't help that the engine is no longer made. They really had to beat the bushes for engines for the project. The engines were also highly modified to reduce weight and mount the power takeoff to drive the generator and so on.

Luck always plays a part in these things as well. They were counting on a tail wind to make the crossing. But at first, the tail wind wasn't there. And the engine was running funny. They believe that the engine was actually set a little too lean, which may have actually helped in the end, though they don't know for sure.

So, could you do better with a high-tech approach? I think you might be able to. If you had someone who knows engines the way Maynard knows engines, and you also had a BIG stack of OS .61FS's sitting around. (or the ability to machine your own engine). After all, the fuel weighted more than anything else, and the FAI weight limit includes fuel. If you can't get an engine to run long enough on that many pounds of fuel, you aren't going to make it.

Not to downplay the low drag, of course. Just pointing out that there was a lot of other problems to deal with, and obviously a conventional balsa-ply-heatshrink covered airframe is good enough.


_____________________________

Kirk Montague Adams
RCCA 560

(in reply to destructiveTester)
       Post #: 58

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 8:30:47 PM   
dick Hanson



Posts: 10192
Joined: 12/12/2001
From: slc, UT, USA
Status: offline
For the last time :
Would a composite do better ?
Beats me-
Formost, is to not put anything into actual use with out some meaningful testing.
I know my comments antagonized you but I had only hoped you would simply think the problem through.
Sure I cut n try- but have a background of knowing what the problem is, that I am trying to fix.
Maynard Hill apparantly followed a similar course of action.
He knew that the airframe consideration was mainly getting the weight and power reduced to being a well known entity.
Re inventing the wheel for this part of the flight was not , apparantly worth the time/money etc..
Control was a whole other bag .

_____________________________

I am watching you
Libby

(in reply to Montague)
       Post #: 59

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/4/2004 11:40:36 PM   
destructiveTester


 

Posts: 109
Joined: 9/12/2003
From: london, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline
thanks for the post Montague - very interesting.

Remember though that in Maynard's story did do a drag calculation - but he was experienced enough as a modeller to only assume he would get 50% of the predicted performance. And I think that timing the actual aircraft and timing engine runs is very sensible indeed.

JohnG - I don't think anyone was "sniping". Its just a good healthy discussion!

(in reply to Montague)
       Post #: 60

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/5/2004 5:24:17 PM   
Montague



Posts: 4653
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Laurel, MD,
Status: offline
Yeah, they did drag calculations, but my impression was that they did a lot of those calculations based on the measurements from the testing. I know Maynard was actually surprised that the actual drag calculation based on the planes performace was better than expected. Basically, given the winds that TAM5 actually encountered, it never should have made it on paper. The lean engine run might have saved them, plus the plane just did a little better than they thought it would.

Of course, I wasn't involved in the project in any way, I just saw a couple of presentations at our club from Maynard and other guys involved in the project and talked to a few of them at various times. Many of the people involved are members of the club here. So I could have it a bit wrong about how much calculation went in to the design before building. I'm just relaying what I remember from the converstations and presentations. If you've seen some of Maynard's other record setting planes, you'd notice that they generally look very much like the TAM series, so it's not hard to believe that the paper-design stage wasn't very long, but I could be mistaken.

Oh, one other funny thing. When Dave Brown took over on manual control to land it, the first thing Dave did was kill the engine to glide down. They were on the phone when TAM5 was coming in. When Dave killed the engine Maynard had a "He did WHAT!" reaction. They were honestly worried for a moment that it would crash. The TAM design has only a very small battery to power everything on board, the engine powered everything in normal operation. If that battery wasn't up to snuff (if there was some fault and the battery had drained in the air for example), that intentional killing of the engine could have ruined anything. Obviously it worked out fine, but they were sweating it for a few moments at the end.


_____________________________

Kirk Montague Adams
RCCA 560

(in reply to destructiveTester)
       Post #: 61

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/6/2004 12:51:53 AM   
destructiveTester


 

Posts: 109
Joined: 9/12/2003
From: london, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline
re: dead stick landing - that's amazing Montague. Incredible stuff!

(in reply to Montague)
       Post #: 62

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/6/2004 4:35:04 AM   
BFoote


 

Posts: 46
Joined: 7/7/2004
From: , WA, USA
Status: offline
First, Sorry Dick for posting that late night too quick thinking, or not so quick thiking as the case may be post

Brian

(in reply to destructiveTester)
       Post #: 63

Dick where did the composites fail? - 10/8/2004 4:39:11 AM   
Ben Lanterman



Posts: 1286
Joined: 10/27/2002
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Status: offline
Did the end grain laminated structures come apart in the balsa or did the glue debond or .............

I had often wondered how the things would fair in the long run but never had the cash to build one much less dozens to see the results. How many airplanes do you suppose you have built over the years? Maybe we could start a pool, the closest guess gets one of your airlanes


_____________________________

Ben Lanterman

(in reply to dick Hanson)
       Post #: 64

RE: Maynard Hill TAM 5 Aspect Ratio - 10/8/2004 8:16:21 PM   
dick Hanson



Posts: 10192
Joined: 12/12/2001
From: slc, UT, USA
Status: offline
How many ?
many hundreds and in partial kits for customers - this will run it up more - At least upwards of 1000
safe math : 25 years steady building - 1000/25 =40 per year= 200/40=5 working days per model.
These are not all of one type - I have done no big glass sailplanes - and few racers - but lotsa other stuff - big/ little/
Glass failures - it's a case by case thing ailerons delaminating - lots of fractures in gear support areas.
the areas supporting the tail groups-general cracking from loads from the stabs -mostly I believe these were simply resonant problems in that area.

_____________________________

I am watching you
Libby