RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight....  
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RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/6/2004 6:30:16 AM   
MikeMc



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From: Union City, CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: William Robison

The average RC pilot is a lazy fellow, he almost never even thinks about the rudder except as something for steering while on the ground. Then he starts with twin engines, learning that the left stick can be moved sideways while in the air. It is often a difficult lesson. Sometimes expensive as well.

Bill.


I'll be joining a club in the next month or two (yes that's shocking on it's own) and they require LG with rubber tires on all aircraft. I was thinking of how I would put an LG on my Skrike (1 aileron left to install) and was thinking of piggybacking a pushrod off the aileron servo for nose wheel steering. Can't get much more lazy than that.

_____________________________

Sponge Mike Square Pants - Insubordinate Renegade Airforce (IRA 1)

(in reply to William Robison)
       Post #: 101

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/6/2004 6:36:41 AM   
GPitts


 

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what do you guys mean about a coordinated turn? Is it something about making a flat turn so that the airplane stays level in a turn and doesn't lose as much speed as suppose to just banking with ailerons? I guess I'm one of those typical RC Pilots who only uses rudder on the ground or while doing aerobatics just like what William mentioned. I fly smaller models that doesn't really require any rudder in the air. I would like to know more about the importance of rudder so that I dont make an expensive mistake!

Heh...the video finally finished downloading this moment...sure took awhile for it to download.

That is a real nice airplane...sucks to see it go down right away and not be able to see it fly that much.

(in reply to William Robison)
       Post #: 102

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/6/2004 2:36:29 PM   
teryn1


 

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Let me clarify: rudder is necessary for coordinated turns (as I mentioned), for steering on the ground, cross wind landings, etc. But if we are off the ground in normal speed, straight and level flight not doing anything unusal (like flying at the stall or doing unusal aerobatics), then any conventional, inherently stable airplane can be flown safely, controllably without the use of the rudder. A rudder merely enhances and makes the flight cleaner, in normal flight. The important fact that some people are missing in my last post here is that the rudder, fundamentally, does not turn the airplane. There is nothing in the physics that suggests otherwise....

The magnitude of adverse yaw is dependent on a lot of factors. In general, I do not see adverse yaw effects as dramatic on RC because of the low Reynolds number and inertia effects compared with full-scale planes. A big factor on how much adverse yaw you get is the wing length. Longer wings suffer more because the moment arm is longer. However, all airplanes that have ailerons suffer from adverse yaw in varying degrees. Next time, take your airplane up in trimmed level flight and make a turn with the ailerons only and watch how the airplane yaws. You will get more of an effect by rolling quickly at lower airspeeds and higher angles-of-attack and with planes with longer wings (Piper Cubs have dramatic adverse yaw tendencies).

A coordinated turn means that the tail is tracking the nose, and that the fuselage is always aligned with the direction of flight (which way the plane is going). In other words, there is no yaw angle-of-attack. Adverse yaw comes about because of a difference in induced drag created on each side of the wing when the ailerons are deflected - assuming that each is deflected the same amount. This causes the airplane to yaw in the opposite direction to the bank (that was created by the ailerons in the first place). Rudder is used to yaw the airplane back in the same direction as the roll. This is called "coordinating" your turn....Coordinating your turn is not a necessary thing to do in order to fly SAFELY on 99% of conventional airplanes. But it's not an elegant or practiced way of flying....

If you want to learn some more basics about airplanes, look at this hour long video documentary with Real Player:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/ArchiveOOC.ram

< Message edited by teryn1-RCU -- 10/6/2004 2:54:27 PM >

(in reply to GPitts)
       Post #: 103

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/6/2004 5:17:35 PM   
CGRetired



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So, what are you saying, that only young men can fly big planes? Sounds like yours is bigger than mine. And you have never crashed?

(in reply to TOPGUNNER)
       Post #: 104

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/6/2004 6:31:29 PM   
teryn1


 

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From: Green Valley, AZ, USA
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:

< Message edited by teryn1-RCU -- 10/6/2004 6:59:27 PM >

(in reply to CGRetired)
       Post #: 105

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/6/2004 6:59:22 PM   
MikeMc



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From: Union City, CA, USA
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I'd like to order some rudder and a side of turn coordination please.

< Message edited by MikeMc -- 10/6/2004 7:27:06 PM >


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Sponge Mike Square Pants - Insubordinate Renegade Airforce (IRA 1)

(in reply to teryn1)
       Post #: 106

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/7/2004 10:24:39 PM   
Kelsey_B


 

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Joined: 5/25/2004
From: West, TX, USA
Status: online
Teryn1-RCU,

Thanks for the input. At first, feeding in opposite rudder in a turn didn't make sense to me. I have spent the last summer making myself land a US60 using only rudder to make corrections on landing approach. I've been making left and right hand approaches. I now use my left hand as well as I use my right hand. But I am always moving the rudder the direction I want the nose to point. I'm trying to prepare myself for the heavier war birds.

So I cranked up my RF simulator and tried your technique with the P38 and B17. It really works. I spent hours making pretty turns without yanking and banking the thing. When you bank the wings with ailerons, the nose tends to fall. So a little opposite rudder keeps this from happening - similat to a knife edge.

Thanks for the info - I was really amazed.

For anyone just starting out - please learn to use rudder to make steering corrections on landing. It will save you. I have seen so many people try to make an aileron correction flying near stall speed. The wings bank, this kills any speed you have left, and the plane noses straight into the ground. Keep those wings parallel to ground at low speeds.

(in reply to teryn1)
       Post #: 107

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/7/2004 11:15:31 PM   
w4kv



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From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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Randy--
I was only able to view the video once, and I confess that the monitor I was using has poor resolution, so I wasn't able to check out the control surfaces. Where is the file now?

Trimming a plane as large as the one in the crash would be best done with very short forward flights with immediate landings. If the pilot had tried this, I think that he would have appreciated the control problems at an altitude of a couple of feet rather than what--15-18? Still might have had trouble, but he may have been tipped off and had a chance to correct something.

How do you trim a new plane?

(in reply to teryn1)
       Post #: 108

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/8/2004 2:18:02 AM   
bentwings


 

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Hey MikeMc,

Is that sompthin' like a burger an' fries? If so I'll have a double size and please throw in plenty of aileron sauce. LOL

(in reply to w4kv)
       Post #: 109

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/8/2004 2:40:08 AM   
MikeMc



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OK, but if you want extra thrust it's gonna cost ya.

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Sponge Mike Square Pants - Insubordinate Renegade Airforce (IRA 1)

(in reply to bentwings)
       Post #: 110

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/8/2004 4:26:10 AM   
bentwings


 

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I hope raw salad off the $$$ tree in the backyard will be ok??

(in reply to MikeMc)
       Post #: 111

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/8/2004 3:04:33 PM   
beenie



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From: Baton Rouge , LA, USA
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Quote: Or you could go out a buy a $395,000 kingair 200 and cut the rudder off of it and try to take off with over 1200 hp of turbo prop engine and see how far down the runway you get

For that amount of money, the only king air that you could get would be missing its rudder! They actually don't take that much rudder to keep the 1700hp straight.; Only the initial little kick at brake release.

I have noticed that the "rudder or not to rudder" argument is a hot one, almost as bad as the "higher stall speed when downwind" one. Some airplanes WILL NOT turn without rudder. THe Aeronca 7AC champ is one. My 1/6 scale cub is another. I havn't noticed that size plays a very large factor in the severity of adverse yaw, it is more dependant of aileron size, deflection, and design.

The airplane will go into a skidding turn with rudder only because as the plane yaws, the outside wing is exposed to a higher airflow than the inside wing. This causes a bank.

It is not the horizontal componant of lift (HCL for now) that causes a plane to turn, at least not entirely. The HCL would merely cause the airplane to slide sideways. It is the vertical stabilizer that opposes this motion and causes the nose to turn. Banking the wings is what controls the amount of total lift acting horizontal, but it is the traditional method of banking that it is the problem. The rudder is for keeping the longitudinal axis of the plane aligned with the flight path. But it is also used to keep the resultant load from gravity and centrifugal force perpendicular to the wing span.

(in reply to bentwings)
       Post #: 112

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/8/2004 6:28:00 PM   
MikeMc



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Yeah, that make like no sense.

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Sponge Mike Square Pants - Insubordinate Renegade Airforce (IRA 1)

(in reply to beenie)
       Post #: 113

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/9/2004 12:37:57 AM   
beenie



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I know, but it sounds cool.

(in reply to MikeMc)
       Post #: 114

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/9/2004 3:55:48 PM   
teryn1


 

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In a banked turn, the gravitational force is not perpendicular to the "wing span" as you say. I challenge you to show me something in the physics that says a rudder turns the airplane and then I will believe you. I can tell that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Some of the things you have said are wrong, and some are the same as what I have said already. Your Champ and your Cub will turn just fine without rudder...I guarantee it.

< Message edited by teryn1-RCU -- 10/9/2004 3:58:44 PM >

(in reply to beenie)
       Post #: 115

RE: video: 20 ft wingspan B-24 crash on maiden flight.... - 10/9/2004 6:32:29 PM