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424 Unification - 8/12/2002 10:53:38 PM   
kane


 

Posts: 255
Joined: 6/28/2002
From: Arlington Heights, IL, USA
Status: offline 		OK, NOT PEAKED in APRA

Now tell me what it means interms of AMA 424?

Is the OS legal for AMA 424??

_____________________________

Dan Kane

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 51

424 Unification - 8/12/2002 10:58:39 PM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Mike,

The OS thing is a marketing issue. If it's out of range, maybe the OS 32 SX can play. OS needs to be alowed into the game.

The Tiger Shark 40 should be legal since it doesn't exceed 16,500 PEAKED. I'm going to run another one and see how it does, plus I'm going to continue on the break-in of the first one.

I think the rule should be PEAKED, and not UNPEAKED, since UNPEAKED is too dependent on the needle setting, and other stuff. That's why I proposed 17,000 as the new limit. I should have said 17,000 maximum rpm's PEAKED on the ground. That would allow the TT Pro 40 users to be within the rules, if PEAK is the intent of the rule.

One thing I thought about is sealing engines. I got the idea from the NASCAR low end starter classes called Bandelero's and Legends. They use a wire that goes through certain areas on the engine and is closed by a clamped on seal. After inspection. you could wrap the wire around the cylinder head, over the fins, and around the muffler and seal it. If someone had to tear down an engine after inspection, it would have to be re-sealed. I'm going to do some experimentation with this concept.

Has anybody actually used a radar gun to measure a APRA legal plane in level flight?

What is the proper pronunciation of APRA?

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 52

424 Unification - 8/12/2002 11:31:33 PM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		Dan.....If the AMA 424 CD requires the engine to be peaked when he checks it, looks like the OS FX won't make it. If the CD wants it peaked checked, then you could most likely raise the head until it slows down enough, then the OS, Nelson, or Jett, would qualify with a gutted muffler. I don't know of anyone running true 424 rules, or checking motors peaked, only on the line race ready, & backed off. I suspect true AMA 424 is not run much simply because of all the kinks, & loop holes, which I am sure will get straightened out eventually..........For Now APRA & NEPRO are the ones having the biggest, 424 type racing success, and I bet the guys can suggest, & whine all they want, trying to change these rules, but I doubt APRA or NEPRO will change anything while they are having such great success. We are not talking just recently, but for many years !! At least ten or more...If it ain't broke, why fix it ?

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 53

424 Unification - 8/12/2002 11:47:26 PM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]17,000 maximum rpm's PEAKED on the ground. That would allow the TT Pro 40 users to be within the rules, if PEAK is the intent of the rule. [/QUOTE]
Not necessarily . And what about the TT 40s that exceed 17k? Its a slippery slope with no bottom. Hold the line or forget it . [COLOR=red]Once you start down there is no return.[/COLOR]
The answer is simple and cheap. Yes! AMA 424 is entry level racing - we are only talking AMA now so APRA and NEPRO can stay as they are - but we should expect NATS entrants to be able to shim (and tach) their engines. The most difficult part for novice racers will be obtaining the proper shims. You can't buy them at the city hobby shop. So we have them available at the nats and during processing hand out instructions explaining the rule and give a few shims to all who need them. Most will have shimmed their TT40 already (or any otherwise [COLOR=crimson]legal[/COLOR] engine) but will still accept the handout shims).

_____________________________

Regis 0o

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 54

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 1:10:29 AM   
kane


 

Posts: 255
Joined: 6/28/2002
From: Arlington Heights, IL, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by kane
Utttt OHHHH,

I am in no way asking anyone who runs APRA to change their rules. I HONESTLY BELIEVE, 424 AT THE NATS WOULD BE A GOOD THING!!!!! And I am trying to do is eliminate the possiblity of getting high performance engines into this event. My understanding of these posts and previous posts is that with the current wording in the rule book it is possible. I agree opinions are like _________ and everyone has one

[/QUOTE]

Mike,

I am quoting myself above. All I am attempting is to make AMA 424 like APRA/NEPRO. These two groups have somehow eliminated the confusion into what is legal and not legal. Why can't AMA 424 be that cut and dry??

_____________________________

Dan Kane

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 55

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 1:49:32 AM   
daven



Posts: 7023
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: online 		I agree Dan.

We need to keep it simple. Get rid of the RPM rule and stick with an approved engine list. An RPM rule is too hard to enforce and will cause endless arguments in regards to how, when, and why it is checked.

Do we have an extra 3-5 minutes before or after every heat to check RPM readings? I don't think so.

_____________________________

Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 56

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 2:41:49 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Dave,

You are probably right about the engine list. Every group that has had sustained success has had an engine list or a single engine event, from what I can tell.

Mike,

[COLOR=blue]>> but I doubt APRA or NEPRO will change anything while they are having such great success. We are not talking just recently, but for many years !! At least ten or more...If it ain't broke, why fix it ? <<[/COLOR]

Here's why something needs to be done. The Predator has helped to get new people started. Even though the early ones had some serious problems, especially if overpowered, a low cost ARF Q-500 plane is exactly what I told Duane Gall I believed was the problem with racing in September of 2001 well before the Predator came around. So, new people are starting in places that don't use the APRA or NEPRO rules. They come here and other places trying to find out what engine to buy, etc. We always have to tell them to check the LOCAL rules. Why not have a NATIONAL set of rules so that an APRA guy can race in NEPRO, for instance. If the APRA guy is using Magnum's or Super Tigre's, he's not legal for a NEPRO race.

And here's another reason. I'm going up to Bowie for their races. I'm primarily going for 428, but I want to race in 424, also. According to the NEPRO site [COLOR=blue]"The only engine allowed is the Thunder Tiger Pro .40 R/C. Remote needle valves are permitted for safety reasons. The only pressure allowed is muffler pressure. All replacement parts except screws, bearings, glow plugs, gaskets, prop washer and nut must come from the manufacturer."[/COLOR] I thought I was going to have to buy a TT Pro 40 just to fly 424 in Bowie, but I have been informed that I can race something other than the TT.

I'm buying a couple of TT Pro 40's so I can race at Bowie and in the SEMPRA 424 races, but I would rather be able to run something else. Like the Kangke TigerShark 40's I can buy and sell for $50 and still make a little money on. Plus Kangke is going to do a 4 bolt backplate mount for cheap.

The AMA rule book doesn't have an approved engine list, but the NMPRA could, so that everyone has the same foundation. Even if the NMPRA just decides that the APRA engine list is the Master List and endorses it, that would be a very unifying thing that the NMPRA could easily accomplish.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 57

Racing - 8/13/2002 3:01:35 AM   
Bill Vargas



Posts: 1572
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Team Coldies, CA, USA
Status: offline 		>>> I'm buying a couple of TT Pro 40's so I can race at Bowie and in the SEMPRA 424 races, but I would rather be able to run something else.<<<


Stick with 424 for a while before you do 428,,, to get some experience and then come back and tell us what you think about those TT Pro 40's

BV

_____________________________

If it ain't leaking oil, then something's wrong,,, USMC, RETIRED!

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 58

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 3:11:08 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Bill,

I've been around TT Pro 40's, I just don't own one.

We can all use more practice and experience. Randy Bridge won 1st place in Q-500 at the first NATS he went to.

BTW, I noticed that's a Sport JETT in your F3D/30, not a Quickie JETT ... there's a big difference in the speed attainable between the two.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 59

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 3:17:36 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		MDP,

One other thing. If there is to be a NATIONAL sponsored 424 series like I've been working on, it is neccessary to unify 424. I've talked to some manufacturers, and they want their products to be usable in the event if they are going to sponsor it and donate prizes. Winning stuff draws people in. Especially if they don't have to pay big entry fees to enter and pay for the prizes.

I want to help rebuild pylon ... not just sustain or grow it in the areas where is currently ok. Yes, it takes a big LOCAL or REGIONAL effort, but a NATIONAL effort to get the LOCAL efforts going increases the chances of their survival.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 60

TT Pro 40 - 8/13/2002 3:26:45 AM   
Bill Vargas



Posts: 1572
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Team Coldies, CA, USA
Status: offline 		>>> I've been around TT Pro 40's, I just don't own one.<<<

If you don t own one,,, then stop talking bad about it till you Race One,,,

BV

< Message edited by Bill Vargas -- Aug 13 2002 2:16PM >

_____________________________

If it ain't leaking oil, then something's wrong,,, USMC, RETIRED!

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 61

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 3:47:34 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Bill,

You seem to have missed some things. I haven't said bad things about the TT Pro 40 that aren't well known, and the only bad things I mentioned were the bearing problems and availability.

Plus, I'm talking about marketability. Ace R/C is not a top tier company that is a prime candidate for sponsorship. I'm thinking at a bigger scope than you seem to be.

I do own some Thunder Tiger engines and they are not as high in quality as the O.S. products I own. I always tear down the TT products before running them, and I usually just pop the backplate on the O.S. products, if that.

Here's an O.S. 25 FX on the test stand just as of Saturday. All I did was pop the backplate, and it was as clean as it could be.

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 62

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 4:30:19 AM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		Don.......The APRA / Nepro events, were sucessful, way before the Predator came along, but I agree it certianly was a shot in the arm for Q-500, but at least 95 % of the pilots used $50 kits, and now for a little more, they get a done plane......At this point, excuse me while I dig you for a moment, & all in fun, but you have to admit, there's a lot of truth here.....It was not that long ago "YOU" were talking _ _ _ _ about Predators, and without ever seeing one, now "YOU" are talking that same _ _ _ _ about TT Pro .40's, and you have never had one of them either.......STOP IT !!.....(now get your butt to bed, & no dinner for you buddy).......The only reason the guys like the TT Pro, is that they are cheap, and seem to run the best of the list. In APRA, nobody is forced to use them, they simply like them. It is really not a monopoly. Other manufacturers have the same chance to also make their engines run good.........Good Night !

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 63

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 4:36:14 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		You all sound like a bunch of school girls wining because the school might measure the length of their skirts. Arn't the winning engines of 428 and 422 checked at the nats? If a plane is obviously faster then the rest, isn't incumbent upon the CD to check that engine? I would hope the answer is yes. If not, then the many ex pylon racers that have told me they quit because they felt/believed other racers were modifying their engines were probably right. Racers are going to do whatever they think they can get away with (and why not!). That goes for novices as well as experts. Every suspect engine (ie. TT40) should be checked once. Preferably before the race. If it tachs over 16.5K then it doesn't race until it gets detuned. If it misses a round or two - thats the breaks. At the end, the top three and fast time should get rechecked (just as they would be checked that they are stock ). The airframes are checked before the race - why not suspect engines?

_____________________________

Regis 0o

(in reply to PylonWorld)
       Post #: 64

424 Unification - 8/13/2002 4:42:09 AM   
MDP