RE: Trainers...what are they good for?  
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RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/4/2004 10:47:16 PM   
MikeMc



Posts: 572
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Union City, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnBuckner
Those newbies who brag that trainers are 'bunk' are doing a grave disservice to the vast majority of people who really want to learn and do it right.


I don't know about the other newbies but this newbie (me) has been flying 15+ years.

My list of things that need to die is growing.
1) Club rightousness.
2) Trainer rightousness.
3) Instructor rightousness.

All great things on their own, but the rightousness part needs to die and never be seen again.

_____________________________

Sponge Mike Square Pants - Insubordinate Renegade Airforce (IRA 1)

(in reply to JohnBuckner)
       Post #: 26

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/4/2004 11:15:32 PM   
LuckyArmpit



Posts: 847
Joined: 8/6/2002
From: West Middlesex, PA, USA
Status: offline 		I tend to agree with the use of trainers. My first glow model was a Hangar 9 Arrow. Trainer but with a semi symmetrical wing.
It flew well! Went where ya pointed it. However, it did not self correct itself in that you had to give opposite control. I chose this plane
over a Nexstar etc. because I already flew electric for 3 years.
I will also second the idea of a low wing trainer type for 2nd plane. I have a Tiger 2 which flies purty nice and have a Twist. The Twist flies great but, its very easy to lose control with it. I also have a UCD 46 size that has a K&B .65 in it. Its still not totally finished yet.
There are some that can pick up flying right away. This only accounts for a small percentage of newbies. More power to ya if you can pick up rc flying fast. I will say this. You will crash. Its inevetible and everyone crashes at least once. And some of us, more than once!!!


Dave...

(in reply to Montague)
       Post #: 27

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/4/2004 11:22:30 PM   
sigrun



Posts: 1023
Joined: 7/18/2003
From: Dunnunda, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		I surmise you actually intended "righteousness"?

"Righteousness" per se implies something done in conjunction with wisdom or prudence, just, moral and executed in a manner par excellance by way of setting the standard, so I suppose it's understandably apparent why you would disendorse "rightousness" (sic) in all those things so 'heartily'.

Now the intention is not to play-act spelling police here, but the clear analogy is that this demonstrated lack of attention to detail and absence of understanding parallels with your vociferously espoused though mistaken beliefs re the ultimate purpose of instruction through its consummate tool, the venerable trainer.

There no effective alternative way of conveying the fact that you are as confusedly mistaken in your belief as you are dogmatic in your pursuit of same other than to say so directly.

< Message edited by sigrun -- 10/4/2004 11:24:00 PM >

(in reply to MikeMc)
       Post #: 28

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/4/2004 11:24:07 PM   
Woody 51



Posts: 1159
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: GeelongVictoria, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		My 1st trainer was a now OOP Great Planes Trainer .60. I made the big mistake of selling it some 2 years after going solo.
I have since gone out and purchased an ESM (KMP) F1 Trainer.
I use it for novices and also to get the rust off my thumbs after the winter layover. A trainer is a very handy model to have around to fall back on.

_____________________________

A crash keeps one's opinion of one's flying ability, in perspective.

(in reply to LuckyArmpit)
       Post #: 29

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/4/2004 11:50:15 PM   
gus


 

Posts: 494
Joined: 1/6/2003
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Them.... they is fighting words .... ;-)

gus

One day I'll change my sig to "I refuse to have a battle of wits with unarmed people!"

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... if only... ?

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RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/4/2004 11:59:49 PM   
JohnBuckner



Posts: 4009
Joined: 12/23/2001
From: Kingman, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		I find it interesting MikeMc that the top item you choose to blame me for had nothing to do with the subject as I never uttered a word about clubs. Also as I clearly stated in my post that it was my opinion and I do stand behind that quoted sentence from long participation and observation.

It would seem that your "list of things that need to die" may even be far longer than than you posted.

John

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"Keep your controllines tight"

(in reply to Woody 51)
       Post #: 31

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/5/2004 12:23:38 AM   
MikeMc



Posts: 572
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Union City, CA, USA
Status: offline 		John,

I have nothing against you personally, but I wasn't too thrilled with your comment that made a connection between newbies and the advice that a trainer might not be the best solution for training.

On my cute little "rightousness" list: It was not directed at you personally, but simply at the trend to dish out advice based on very narrow objectives without considderation of specific details. i.e. Everybody must join a club regardless of the individual situation, and any other options are simply unsafe and unacceptable. It was not put in any special order.

_____________________________

Sponge Mike Square Pants - Insubordinate Renegade Airforce (IRA 1)

(in reply to JohnBuckner)
       Post #: 32

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/5/2004 12:25:12 AM   
Woody 51



Posts: 1159
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: GeelongVictoria, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Hey come on guys, calm down before a Moderator steps in.
After all, this is meant to be a helpful forum and all opinions count. Just agree to disagree as is everyones right.

_____________________________

A crash keeps one's opinion of one's flying ability, in perspective.

(in reply to JohnBuckner)
       Post #: 33

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/5/2004 1:22:57 AM   
JohnBuckner



Posts: 4009
Joined: 12/23/2001
From: Kingman, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Gus you and woody are quite right and of course I do agree to disagree with the trainer detracters.

Now on to more of the subject. Bubbagates yes the wingless trainer races have been some of the most enjoyable interludes in memory. Some years back when making the scale warbird racing circuit it became almost mandatory that all competitors bring a trainer and on Saturday evening just at sunset out they would come for the wingless races. These races did see upwards of 40/45 entrys and the wingless heats would continue late into the night and most of the trainers would end up on their backs accompanied by howls of laughter. Interestingly the winner was usually the most timid pilot.

Yet another kick in the britchs that a trainer is ideal for:

Insert a brass tube accross the fuse towards the rear and put a long piece of music wire through and hinged in the tube make this wire about a foot long and bend a hook at the back. Let this hook drag on takeoff and it will hang down in flight. Now tie a fifty foot piece of Mason line on the handles of two water filled mike jugs spread across the middle of the runway. Go for it and test you carrier skills. Warning a successfull carrier trap is harder than snot to accomplish but man its so neat when you do. About the only damage this one ever does is a few broken props.

John

_____________________________

"Keep your controllines tight"

(in reply to Woody 51)
       Post #: 34

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/5/2004 2:15:48 AM   
newbieT



Posts: 89
Joined: 5/18/2004
From: South Hadley, MA, USA
Status: offline 		I just have to drop my $0.02 here. I have also found the same with my trainer. People at my field said I outgrew that trainer before I even had my first flight with it. I spent a lot of time on the sim, and I'm very enthusiastic about flying, building and hanging out learning from the more experienced at the field. But I must say, I don't think I could've given up the experience I've had with it so far.
1. This is the first plane I built from a kit
2. This is the first plane I've flown on
3. First dead stick
4. Hell, first everything!
It's a real confidence builder knowing I can do certain things on this trainer that are very possibly harder to do then on a plane that was designed for aerobatics. I thought the same as the original poster. Why the hell did I bother with this plane. Well, for starters, I didn't know I was going to take to it so well. Second, I didn't know I was going to do so much time on a sim. There's tons of things that have gone into my flight experience that effected my first few flights that a lot of other people probably aren't going to have. I've seen quite a few new people at the field. Their first flights aren't quite as smooth as they could be and I suspect (and some of the instructors out there have already mentioned) that most people are this way. There's only one way to gague this whole thing, and that's by majority. And the majority of people out there have a lot of difficulty with many aspects of flying, which makes the trainer perfect for them. For other people it might be out grown quickly. But as so many others have stated, it's a great thing to have a trainer in the hanger to take out on those days when family/friends are over that might be curious to try it, or perhaps to become and instructor at your field and give back something to the group. Hell, if that all doesn't matter to you and it was 'just a waste of money,' then sell the damn thing and move on.

A bit more then $0.02, but you get the point, trainers are a good thing, that's why they're so popular. It's the safe way to learn how to fly and cover the basics. After that, what you do with your trainer is your business.

-Dave

(in reply to JohnBuckner)
       Post #: 35

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/5/2004 11:50:34 AM   
Bob101


 

Posts: 845
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Rural, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I'm torn between whether trainers are the best for new pilots or not.

In some ways a trainer "can" lead to some real bad habits if they instructor isn't always on top of it and correcting it. Problem is in our club we have one instructor who instructs about 90% of the pilots and he lets them get bad habits and never corrects them. Sure when they can solo they can take off and land and fly around safely, but their enjoyment of the sport is short lived on the next airplane and they pound the sticks around, stall when trying to land (or just stall..) stuff like that.

By it's very nature the trainer is very forgiving of mistakes - as it should be. But the instructor should make the student aware of this. I've seen many people come off a trainer and think they can handle anything because it's easy on a trainer.

I don't beleive everyone needs a trainer to learn on, in fact I recently taught a friend how to fly using my Extra 1/4 scale because I was too lazy to get anything else out of the trailer...but he was prepared for it and it didn't bother him. He went and got a trainer and said that was a waste of money - now a trainer is too easy...heh I found that funny.

I guess it boils down to the individual. I learned on a trainer, never flew it again after 3 weeks and bought a 4-star - which was a waste of money - I bought it based on recommendations on RCU - from people that had never seen me fly. I'll say that some people can't learn on anything but a trainer, some people will never learn to fly even on a trainer, and some people can learn to fly on anything. How's that for covering my butt?

It's VERY HARD to generalise on what is best for X person without knowing that person or seeing them fly or whatever first. So most people play it safe and throw a blanket statement like "Trainers are the way to go". Safe is good.

< Message edited by Bob101 -- 10/5/2004 11:52:04 AM >

(in reply to newbieT)
       Post #: 36

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/5/2004 7:14:34 PM   
last12know



Posts: 104
Joined: 6/14/2004
From: white hall, AR, USA
Status: offline 		The first thing to know about the UCD3D .46-.90 are they have a fragile fusleage. Every one I've seen fly at our field has broken in half because of a rough landing. The fuselage breaks in the exact same place on all of them, right below the canopy in the middle of the wing saddle. The plane can always be fixed but at what cost to performance. The plane is built lite for a reason, so it can do 3d stuff. Having your plane break in half on your first solo flight would be a real disapointment.
I don't know how many beginners can count on sticking the landing every single time. I am not saying that a trainer is the only way to learn to fly, but somethin a little more strudy than a U-can-Do 3D would be a lot less discouraging for a beginner.

Buy a trainer!

(in reply to Bob101)
       Post #: 37

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/5/2004 7:49:36 PM   
jettstarblue



Posts: 3199
Joined: 10/5/2002
From: Ashtabula county, OH, USA
Status: offline 		"Now the intention is not to play-act spelling police here, but the clear analogy is that this demonstrated lack of attention to detail and absence of understanding parallels with your vociferously espoused though mistaken beliefs re the ultimate purpose of instruction through its consummate tool, the venerable trainer."


What the blah blah?

TRAINERS ARE GOOD FOR NOTHING! SEND THEM TO ME, PM me for the shipping address...

_____________________________

Self employed genius visionary

(in reply to last12know)
       Post #: 38

RE: Trainers...what are they good for? - 10/5/2004 8:16:40 PM   
Crashem


 

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