Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/1/2002 From: Middletown,
NJ, USA Status: offline
This first post is a copy of some of another thread that morfed into a Viking thread:
FA
say, i notice that there are many comments on rcuniverse regarding building problems associated with skybench kits. what do you suppose the problem is? i was considering ordering, but am a bit apprehensive due to all the negative commentary regarding problems in construction. primarily, my experience has been with dodgson designs and the instructions are very easy to follow (he tells you everything and it all works and it results in a far superior plane). any suggestions?
please don't anyone misunderstand (for all you skybench fans), i'm not trying to be critical of skybench - it just seems like there are alot of issues in the building of their kits.
RK
I'm not sure if some of those comments were mine . . . Well here's the low down, You get a kit with modern cutting, the org. plans and inst. There is also included a booklet outlining the mods. Ray has made to the org. kit. OK so far, but . . . The booklet is way out of date, talks of Gen. 1 mods but he's made several changes since. In any case, none of the mods are shown on the plans. He also has made alot of changes in the parts supplied, in some cases dimensions, in others materials and in still others new parts completely. Nothing is labled and only a few times does he say to replace X with Y. Nor does he say something like " in step three replace 1/4" shear web stock with the 1/2" provided in bag 4, you'll now have to notch the webs to accept the main wing rod tube before installing" . . . That was a easy one to figure out without any help from him, twenty unmentiond 1/2' X 2" X 4" pieces of balsa, twenty 2" X 4" center wing bays, but there have been too many others that were more difficult to figure out . . . some not untill too late.
He should have a least included some drawings and many more step referenced supp. inst. to his kits.
FA
thanks rick - is this guy an engineer (skybench guy)? maybe he's just selling the kits (distributor) and not a designer. i'm just asking (so don't anybody get excited). any time we make changes to existing designs, we must produce a layout and a set of dwgs describing the mod. does he do any testing or does he just sell the kits.
thanks
jettmaven
i just went to the skybench web page. as you scroll thru the listing of kits,at the end of each general description, you can click on a link to "skybench modifications to ----------".it looks like that's where he tries to keep things up to date.
RK
From what I know, they're his mods. He is a builder and a flyer of some repute. The mods. make sense . . . it's just making sense of everything he's done that's fustrating. All of these kits semi re-issues of early 80's and mid to late 70's classic designs. His mods have been mainly to beef up weak areas in the org. designs while keeping the org's outline and legality in RES and NOS classes.
If he'd just take the time to document what he's done/changed. For the price he gets for is stuff he sure should. You know the wood is pretty crappy in the GP Bird of Time kit but for $70 for a 3M kit what can one expect (inst. fair). . . I paid $130 plus shipping for my Skybench version of the 3m old (1978') Craft-Air 'Viking' . . . Cutting: excellent, wood: fair to good, orig. plans and inst.: fair for the time, Inst. as to Ray's (Skybench) mods.: Just plain unacceptable.
Over-all rating: Just fair at best, has not proven to be an enjoyable kit to build whatsoever. Instead of being a month or so build . . . and not including time off from it I've had to take for various personel reasons, I'm on month four of avg. five to ten plus hrs. a week building (or should I say: one to two hrs. building, four to eight pondering (figuring). It's a kit at best (to me) worth maybe $90-100, and that only for the cutting.
I'm not done with it yet, though close. I hope it flys VERY well to make me feel good over all of the time I've spent building. Would I buy another of his kits???? Geez, he has the 'rights' to so many neat old designs, and he does do all of the cutting . . . I'd have to say I'd rather buy from him then scratch-build and as I noted eariler, all his mods. do make sense, they're things you'd only learn for yourself the hard way. Gosh, if he'd only fix his plans and inst. there wouldn't be a doubt in my mind about it . . . a little less expensive in cost wouldn't hurt either.
Just a note: All of the Inst. booklets of kits made at that time no matter the mfg. were just type written tomes, no drawings, no pix. Don't expect anything like the lavishly illistrated inst. books that are common these days . . . Be prepared to think . . . alot. Rick K LSF 6493
< Message edited by Rick K -- 10/1/2004 8:45:53 PM >
soarrich
I built one of his OLY IIs, loved it. I've built 4 over the years so I didn't read any instructions. The mods to the fuse are nice.
I also am building a Viking, have'n never built one before it was going slower than expected. Ray left out the mods sheet from my kit, I was building the fuse and had a question so I emailed him, he e-mailed the mod sheet to me. I had already done my own mods because I remembered the tail being broke on every one I had ever seen in the '80s. The design of the kit isn't as good as the OLY II, but that's a Viking.
Rick's comments are fair, I'm just glad Ray makes these kits avalible to us, even at these prices he's NOT getting rich. I always wanted a Viking, but I would never have scratchbuilt one.
_____________________________
RK Hello Rich and others, I haven't gone to the Skybench site for a few months but didn't see any "tips" for my Viking kit last visit.
One other note as to my kit, I was somewhat dismayed to notice that some parts that could have been laser cut in areas weren't ie. the shapes of the Horz/ Vert. tail and rudder ribs ( supplied as cut to width and length strip stock) and the slots to accept the TE stock into them. The inst. say to sand them to a nice 'airfoil' shape and notch for TE stock. Laser cutting them would have spared me of a tedious and time consuming task, about a weekend's worth of sanding and cutting. This was all pre-cut on my 'Mystery Ship' a much more complex kit for which I paid about the same price. I was also suprised to see that instead of making a half diamond cut for the fwd to rear fuse sheeting splice (more gluing area) Ray chose to make a simple Vert. cut for the splice and uses a 1/8" ply doubler instead . . .
Beware Rich!!! This doubler makes for a really tight control rod bend if you don't move the provided holes in F-4 in far enough, at least 1/4", don't let your outer rods have to bend at all there, just run along the face the doubler. (Why didn't Ray do that to start with? Was the doubler another later mod?) . . . of course doing so now has the control rods crossing over the middle of the area where you'd like to build a 'ballast box' . . . BE SURE to open up all of the control rod holes in the formers to a barely snug slip-fit . . . I didn't open mine enough (tight slip-fit) and didn't notice untill it came time to install the inner rods to find out I have binding. Another thing, be sure everything is ok with your end linkage in the tail bell-crank area, make sure to allow for plenty of 'throw' . . . it's a one shot deal once the vert. fin is epoxied in that's it, no futher adj. on that end is possible. I'd love to be able to pull that inner and replace with one with a smaller dia. to solve my binding . . . got in hurry and thought I could live with it with it being a little tight . . . With temp. changes it gets tighter. Now it's too late to change it. Maybe with alot of risk to damaging the vert fin I might be able to fish the end (clevis) up and out the side of the fin, but even if I could, setting the clevis length right again would be a major pain in the rear . . . Something else to ponder on for awhile. I have some 80oz MG/BB servos . . . maybe with enough torque I can overcome the 'stickyness' through brute strength. I could cut a hole in my beautifully shaped (read: hours of sanding) fuse at where (f-4) I think the main binding is to see if I can still move the rods still futher in and open the holes up more somehow . . . without destroying F-4 or the tubes in the process.
What was that? "measure twice, cut once" ????? "things you don't know you learn by doing twice" (the second time being much harder)
In fairness: Ray did mention something about this, opening the holes, I just didn't take it far enough or trial fit the inners after final gluing of the outers but before sheeting the fuse top when something still might more easly been done to correct things.
soarrich
This is my Viking fuse. I've glassed the fuse all the way back to and up the subfin, I also added 1/4" x 1/2" basswood strips under the servo tray that goes from the nose block to the former at the back of the radio compartment. The fuse is a little heavy, but is VERY strong. I did not use the ply ribs Ray supplies for the sides of the fuse.
RK
Hi Rich, from your pix. you seem to be at about the same stage in building as me. I see you sheeted the entire vert. fin, I left mine open as per the plans though I did 'beef' it up somewhat. I just did the bottom of the inner L wing panel last night . . . spars, ribs glued from main back, webs. Used a 'carpenter's' square to keep the root rib square with the TE, worked great! Solved the issue of the wing rod tube interferance with Ray's new 1/2" shear webs by making a fence for my old dremel jig saw and cutting the thickness down to 5/16", saved the scrap to make 6deg. wedges to later install above and below the tubes and then fill the gaps with epoxy/micro ballon mix.
I e-mailed Ray this morn. with a few questions on the construction of the wing, mainly the wash-out in the inner pannel: Do I really need it and if not, what hight to make the TE. 1/8" or 1/4" Also asked him if he had anything else I should know and if he's made and MKI wing kits yet (as of six mo. ago he hadn't) . . . Are you building MkI or II? I'm doing a MkII, wish I'd gotten a MkI instead as I like a real 'floater' I wonder how much he's going to ask for the wing kit? Plenty I'd bet . . . alot more than Craft-air asked for on the plans twenty-five years ago! When I saw that I thought Oh boy, I'm going to order one right away . . . then I rememberd. I'll let you know if he has any 'earth shakingly' new advice.
RK
Hi Rich, That's a good idea, except I don't know how to copy and move stuff. I've done my rudder and fin some time ago. Your'e going to have some real fun notching and shaping those ribs! I know you'll be thinking all kinds of nice things about Ray as you labor on them. Making the tapered spar for the Horz stab is also fun. To ensure the two halves line up build them at the same time touching each other with some wax paper between them. It's simply amazing how a slight error always seems to creep in even when your'e doing your best to avoid them. Take my sheeting job on the bottom of the left inner wing pannel . . . measured the fwd ribs in four places, twice. Carefully set my Master airscrew stripper, cut slowly and with great care and . . . came out 1/16" too narrow, &^%*#!! Carefully stripped out a 1/8" sliver of balsa and after waiting for the glue to dry and after about 45min. of filling and blend sanding the seam . . . at least it's coming out flat and square and any mess-ups Iv'e made have been of the kind that can be corrected, abet with a little work. My tail feathers came out OK and I only broke the ribs about two times each while sanding to a 'nice, airfoil shape' Why didn't Ray laser cut them???? Did you have much trouble with the fairing blocks for the Horz. stab that attach to the fin? I had plenty of trouble trying to shape them to the fin while keeping them square to the stabs, I'm still not happy with them. I think I'm going to make another pair. I sure wish I had one of those duplicator tools, (one of those things with all the little rods that carpenters use to copy moldings) I think Micro-Mark makes one in a size that's right for modelers. Of course I could try to make one, I have some 1/16 music wire that I could cut up for the rods and some scrap 1/2" X !/4" Oak . . . Humm, that just might be my project for today. Another good reason not to throw away 'good' junk, you never can tell when it's going to come in handy, that is if you can remember where you put it when you need it. You should get a load of the X-mass tree stand and my 4th of July fireworks display post I make up from junk in my garage (out here in So Cal about the last thing your'e going to find in a garage is a car, one that runs anyway) Well enough rambiling. Have a good day.
soarrich The pictures from the other tthread......
Posts: 260
Joined: 11/16/2003 From: Fontana,
CA, USA Status: offline
Well, a big moment . . . Will the tip pannel line up with the inner? Yep. Will the root line up with the fuse? . . . YES! yes, yes, well close enough. What I did to give me a little 'wiggle' room was to fix the fwd. wing rod tube as to squareness fore and aft first, then using my digital and analog level gages set the dehidrel angle perfectly and epoxyed. Then using my digital calipers set the spacing between the fwd and rear wing rod tubes as best I could. Tack glued the outer (to tip end) of the rwd. tube to W-3 with slo-zap and, and went for a 'trial' fit . . . mighty close, maybe 1/32 off vert. using the preivously fixed fuse ply rib as a guide Only had to open the bottom of the hole in W-1 (inner ply) a half a hair or so . . . Gosh I'm good . . . this time,. I still have to achive the same results on the Rt wing. I guess measuring everything in, every plane I could several times has paid off. Rick K
Posts: 56
Joined: 12/24/2004 From: Hollister,
CA, USA Status: offline
I too am currently in the process of building a Viking from SkyBench. Only I took it a little further and am electrifying it. I agree that the plans were a little on the vague side as far as the mods were concerned. Even had to make a few trips to the hobby store to pick up replacement balsa to replace a piece here and there I messed up along the way. Overall, I think it is a good kit. I modified the tail a little making it slightly heavier to compensate for the motor weight rather than adding lead. The fuse is almost done, stab and elevators are done, and am currently working on the wing panels.
Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/1/2002 From: Middletown,
NJ, USA Status: offline
Looks great.
I think it's a good choice to electrify, lots of high lift wing. It won't ever be a 'Hotliner', but will make a great floater without the winch hassle. What motor/batteries you going to use?
Posts: 56
Joined: 12/24/2004 From: Hollister,
CA, USA Status: offline
I installed a Hacker B50 11S w/6.7:1 gearbox swinging a 18.5X12 folder running on 9 RC2400. A little overkill, but MotoCalc reports some excellent results with that combo. The original weight of the model, I believe is around 65oz. Mine with the modifications and 1/2oz. fiberglasscovering for the fuse, epoxy painted, will probably be around 75-80oz. without electronics installed. I added two wing ribs to the center panel to increase wing area total by about 132 sq. inches, a 129" wingspan . Figure that will help in the wing loading. MotoCalc predicts a wingloading of 11.1-12.3oz depending on the weight range I'm trying to achieve for the model. AUW should be around 102-112oz.
Posts: 56
Joined: 12/24/2004 From: Hollister,
CA, USA Status: offline
After reading the specs again this morning, I realized that the flying weight is only suposed to be 52oz. for the stock plane. Means I'll have an even lighter wingloading than expected.
Posts: 56
Joined: 12/24/2004 From: Hollister,
CA, USA Status: offline
I got the MKI wings mainly because I wanted something that would be rather slow and relaxing to fly. I decided to electrify it mainly because I didn't want to hassle with a high start or winch. Since my Holiday vacation is over, and I'm back to work, progress has considerably slowed on the Viking. I did get the fuselage painted and tail surfaces mounted. I used Klass Kote epoxy paint for the fuselage. I still have to install the servos for elevator and rudder, and finish up on the wings, spoiler servos, and wing tips, and covering.
Posts: 260
Joined: 11/16/2003 From: Fontana,
CA, USA Status: offline
Hi Guys, I haven't been to the RCU site for quite some time. Nope, I still haven't finshed my Viking. It's been so cold out in the garage here, mid thirties at night, the low forties to mid fifties days here in the 'Inland Empire' of SoCal that Iv'e not gone out there much. I live in the area you've seen on TV (not the mountian slide place) but a f
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Skybench Viking build. - 
I got side tracked so it'll be a little while before I start the wing. Got pictures?
