RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
    Search This Thread  
 
Printable Version



All Forums >> Electric Aircraft Universe >> Glow to Electric Conversions >> RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   next >   >>  

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 9/30/2005 12:40 AM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4814
Score: 104
Joined: 5/24/2003
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Joacim,

It looks like an experimental aircraft with your 4-blade prop on it. I know that a 3-blade prop provides an effective inch more than a 2-blade prop but the effect of going from 3 to 4 blades has been controversial. What effect do you think a 4-blade prop has over a 3-blade prop?

Darrell,

I also have a CC HV 110 sitting here waiting for my next motor choice...hence my curiosity with the T-Rex 40. I have tested my CC HV 85 on a Kontronik 600 motor and the throttle is super smooth! I took the CC guys to dinner at the NEAT Fair and got a first hand lesson on the new 12s HV controllers.

My AXI 5330 provides 3500w at 113amps with an APC 21x11 e-prop. Although full throttle is only needed for burst power, the setup seems to be operating relatively cool with my 10s3p Kokam 2.1AH cells. The CC HV 110 can provide up to 7hp or 5250 watts. This power level is beyond the AXI 5330 so I am looking for a better fit for my ESC.

Where did you find specifications on the TorqueREX 40 motor?


< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 9/30/2005 1:15 AM >

_____________________________

Visit my Web Hangar at www.gregcovey.com/rc.htm

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Joacim)
       Post #: 101

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 9/30/2005 2:33 AM   
Darrell B.



Posts: 399
Score: 100
Joined: 12/22/2003
Last Login: 10/18/2009
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Status: offline

Greg,

I checked on the Wema Flyware site,

http://www.wema.de/wDeutsch_flyware/produkte/motoren/080_T-REX40.php?navid=11

and they don't show the specs any more. I also know that sigmfg.com has them listed on their site under engins, but only the 230 Kv model. Here is a link to where I ordered my 300 Kv motor.

http://www.hoellein.com/websites_neu/kaonline/emotoren/flyware_ex.htm

They are very good to work with, and Harald is who I worked with, but I believe Stephan speaks the best english.

Any way they claim tha you can use the T-Rex 40 where you would need a 5 Hp engine.

I'll do some more looking, but I think that I got my specs off of a flier that Sig put out. I have a friend that is a Sig dealer and he gave me a copy of it when he got them. He is an electric nut also.

I know that I don't push my systems nearly as hard as I should, but I like to overbuild them for what my needs are.

Darrell

< Message edited by Darrell B. -- 9/30/2005 2:34 AM >

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Greg Covey)
       Post #: 102

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 9/30/2005 6:53 AM   
Joacim


 

Posts: 124
Score: 100
Joined: 4/14/2004
Last Login: 9/27/2009
From: S?t䬪e, SWEDEN
Status: offline 		I have done alot of testing comparing 2 and 3 blade props, as long as the rpm is low and diameter big, 3blade is no problem and sems to work good even on 3D planes. This is my firs 4blade experience, think it works the same here, as long as rpm is lower than the comparebul 3blader, it shoult be as effishent. This big 500+g 4bladed prop spinns realy smoth on low rpm, i couldent hear or notice any stalling of prop or vibbration even when doing hovering manovers, to get the same pull as this 4blade 24" you would need 27" APCE or simular, often there is no rom in a scale plane to swing 26-28" props on 1/5 scale planes

In next year i know there will be more big/bigger motors on the market, mainly outrunners, also big 14+s controllers is ariving to handle these new motors.



_____________________________

http://wattsup.se/

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Darrell B.)
       Post #: 103

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 9/30/2005 6:12 PM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4814
Score: 104
Joined: 5/24/2003
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Ok, thanks for the information guys.

I did find some T-Rex 40 motor information in the SIG Web site here. Interestingly, it was under their "Engines" catagory.

It appears to be a similar power level to the AXI 5330 motor which is what I needed to know. I'll be looking for a bigger motor in the 5hp range this Winter.

Joacim,

Do you have any links to your Mejzlik electric props?


_____________________________

Visit my Web Hangar at www.gregcovey.com/rc.htm

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Joacim)
       Post #: 104

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 9/30/2005 9:57 PM   
Joacim


 

Posts: 124
Score: 100
Joined: 4/14/2004
Last Login: 9/27/2009
From: S?t䬪e, SWEDEN
Status: offline 		So far only on my own sites the props are still going tru development,, now they are tested in wind tunnel! next sice will be 22x12, 26x15, 24x12"

http://www.pjs-modellhobby.com/mejzlik.htm

http://web.telia.com/~u15807174/Mejzlik.htm



_____________________________

http://wattsup.se/

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Greg Covey)
       Post #: 105

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 9/30/2005 10:59 PM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4814
Score: 104
Joined: 5/24/2003
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		You do realize that I can't read those sites or are you just playing with me?

Are those props made from carbon fiber?


_____________________________

Visit my Web Hangar at www.gregcovey.com/rc.htm

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Joacim)
       Post #: 106

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 9/30/2005 11:07 PM   
Darrell B.



Posts: 399
Score: 100
Joined: 12/22/2003
Last Login: 10/18/2009
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Greg,
There has been an ongoing pole here on RCUniverse asking for input about the Mejlik prop and what sizes people would be interested in. So far the 20 inch is what has been produced, in a couple of different configurations. It soulds like they are trying to give those of us building large electric airplanes a viable alternative the the APC props. According to the data, Mejlik is able to provide better thrust, without distorting, and the props are lighter also.

Try Altavista for a good translation tool.

Darrell

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Greg Covey)
       Post #: 107

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/1/2005 7:53 AM   
Joacim


 

Posts: 124
Score: 100
Joined: 4/14/2004
Last Login: 9/27/2009
From: S?t䬪e, SWEDEN
Status: offline 		Sorry Greg but you can still see the data!

As Darell said, and from what i have tested the Mejzliks are much stronger and still lighter, can handle more rpm and more power from the motor.

20x11Mejzlik compared to 20x11APCE on exact same setup

Mejzlik spinns abaout 200-250rpm more an gives 400g more trust, with 180watt less effect than APCE.

After the new props up to 26-27" Mejzlik will see if its possi´bul to make smaler props down to maby 17"

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417780&highlight=Mejzlik+

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=404898&highlight=Mejzlik+

http://www.pjs-modellhobby.com/bilder/onyx%20mejzlik.wmv


_____________________________

http://wattsup.se/

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Darrell B.)
       Post #: 108

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/1/2005 1:34 PM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4814
Score: 104
Joined: 5/24/2003
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		It would be interesting to try a 21" or 22" Mejzlik prop on my 33% Edge 540 in place of the APC 21x14 e-prop.

Is there any pricing information or vendor selling these props yet?


_____________________________

Visit my Web Hangar at www.gregcovey.com/rc.htm

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Joacim)
       Post #: 109

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/12/2005 12:35 AM   
Tweet



Posts: 481
Score: 100
Joined: 6/11/2003
Last Login: 10/29/2008
From: Windsor, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Darrell,

How's it going on the P-51?

_____________________________

Tweet

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Greg Covey)
       Post #: 110

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/12/2005 1:28 AM   
Darrell B.



Posts: 399
Score: 100
Joined: 12/22/2003
Last Login: 10/18/2009
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Well I flew the Mustang on Sunday. The conditions weren't perfect, but the wind was light enough so that I could work up the courage to fly it. The only problem was that I was at a totally unfamiliar field and the wind was 90deg cross blowing into my face. This is my first attempt at a Giant scale plane, and a full blown Warbird toboot. The takeoff happened on the third attempt. First attempt ended up in spinning out 1/4 way up the runway when it got squirly and turned hard left. No problem, just push it back to the end of the runway, and try again. Second attempt I couldn't make myself hold enough right into the rudder and it ended up in the weeds off the left side of the runway, and flipped over. There was no visible damage on inspection so it's back to the end of the runway for try number three. This time I held enough right into the rudder, built up my speed, and about half way down the runway it just jumped off the runway. Must have been one of those bumps. This runway really needs to be rolled!!
I climed to safe altitude, throttled back to around half throttle, and started a couple of trimming laps with the gear down. Then after three laps, up came the gear. I made a couple of laps at safe altitude, and trimmed it again with the gear up. It took one click of down, and one click of right aileron, and it was flying hands off perfectly level at half throttle. I then pushed the throttle up to about 3/4 and made a couple of laps and some low flybys. Boy does this motor and prop sound good. Not quite the Merlin but deffinately close, and the sound of the outrunner, that whine that they make, sounds just like a supercharger.
Sorry if I got nostalgic there....
Well I dropped the flaps and had to make two landing approaches and aborts due to comming in to hot. My spotter gave me the goaround call twice, and he was right. The third time my approach was better, but I didn't flair enough, bounced the first touch and then came to a thripple bouncer on the next touch down, but I didn't care it was back on the ground.
WHEWWWWWWW!!!!
I haven't looked the plane over for any loose screws, or damage, but I did charge my batteries. They took 2930mAh each, after about seven minutes of aborted takeoffs, and landings, and some moderate flying. All in all, this is a good number for what I was looking for. All of the big scale flyers said that even though I didn't try any aerobatics it looked like it had plenty of power to do what ever I wanted.
Everything was cool or just warm to the touch, and that Castle Creations HV110 esc is soooooo smooooooth. I may have to try a slightly larger, or more agressive prop on it and see what I can do to get a little more out of this setup. That will have to happen down the road, right now I just want to fly the Mustang.
I think that tomorrow I will start a thorough inspection of everything. I know that I need to tighten up the pull/pull on the tailwheel.
Thanks for asking Tweet. I appreciate your interest.

Good Luck to All,
Darrell

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Tweet)
       Post #: 111

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/12/2005 3:28 AM   
Tweet



Posts: 481
Score: 100
Joined: 6/11/2003
Last Login: 10/29/2008
From: Windsor, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Darrell,

Congratulations! It's funny how a first flight on one of these birds gets you as nervous as flying a full scale airplane, especially if you are flying a new type of airplane.

Sounds like you did great and will be able to enjoy the airplane even more next time.

_____________________________

Tweet

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Darrell B.)
       Post #: 112

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/23/2005 10:06 PM   
Darrell B.



Posts: 399
Score: 100
Joined: 12/22/2003
Last Login: 10/18/2009
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Well guys, I put two more flights on the P-51 on Saturday at a fun fly in Eureka Springs, AR. Tom Hammer, the IMAA director for this area sponsored us at his private field, and was a very gracious host. There were about 22 pilots there and around 30 more in spectators.
It took me a while to get the first flight under my belt. I had an airleak in one of the retracts after the first flight, and I never pressure tested the system after fixing it. Soo, I tested it for an hour gear up, and another hour gear down, to make sure I wouldn't have any suprises when I hit the gear down switch.
The first flight started with a fantastic takeoff run that ended up in a nose over just before it broke ground. I attribute this to new warbird pilot syndrome. So I pulled it back to the takeoff area and started my run again. This time when it was at full speed I just gave a very little up and up we went. I imediately flipped the gear switch up, and did a visual verify on the down wind leg and then entered the pattern. To say that the sound of the prop, on a large electric is impressive is an understatement. The sound is awesom and on a low flyby at half to full throttle is fantastic.
This system has no lack of power, and large loops are possible with no falling off or wing tip dropping at the top. It doesn't have unlimited vertical, but who wants a warbird that does. Scale flight is at half throttle or a little less. You have to roll on the power evenly from half to full. If you just jam the stick forward to full, the torque of the big prop and outrunner pulls the nose down some, but then is easily corrected for afterwords. Just be ready for the speed that follows. I am soo glad that I went with the 300Kv motor instead of the 230Kv that I started to buy.
I flew for well over ten minutes, I forgot to set my timer, but my trusty wingman, Bill Head of Rogers, reminded me of the time, and I dropped the gear, did a visual check, then dropped the flapps to full and bouth 1/3 throttle and made my turn to base. I turned into final and started slowly clicking down the throttle. By the time I was over the runway I only had five or clicks left to idle. Throttle back and loosing altitude I started my flare at about 3 feet, and let it settle onto the mains. The big Mustang rolled on the mains for about 20 feet before the tail started to come down. As the tail touched down I slowly added a little up elevator for better ground control.
I taxied back to the pitt area, about 400 feet and then dialed out the throttle trim to completely stop the motor. All temperatures were within expected limits.
After I recharged the battery packs, each pack took 5300mAh. This is also better than I expected, as I had hoped for a total flight time of around 20 minutes for a full pack charge.
Am I happy with this conversion? YES!! Will I do another? YES!!
I will continue to keep this forum updated as to the progress of the P-51.

Thanks to everyone for your input, and goo luck to all.
Darrell

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Tweet)
       Post #: 113

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/24/2005 1:22 AM   
Tweet



Posts: 481
Score: 100
Joined: 6/11/2003
Last Login: 10/29/2008
From: Windsor, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Awesome. There is definitely a warbird in my future. I'm thinking the new H-9 P-47. It is a bit lighter and smaller and has a nice hatch.

< Message edited by Tweet -- 10/24/2005 1:26 AM >

_____________________________

Tweet

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Darrell B.)
       Post #: 114

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/24/2005 1:50 AM   
Darrell B.



Posts: 399
Score: 100
Joined: 12/22/2003
Last Login: 10/18/2009
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Status: offline 		The Hanger 9 P-47 looks like a great candidate for the AXI 5330. It even comes with the dummy radial so that it will cover it up nicely. I think that there would be quite adequate ventilation around the cylinder heads. I even think that the cowl flaps are open on it for gas motor ventilation. I think that if you shove your batteries right up against the fire wall you would balance out great. Just a couple of ideas to think about.

Thanks, and Good Luck,
Darrell

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Tweet)
       Post #: 115

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/24/2005 2:14 AM   
Tweet



Posts: 481
Score: 100
Joined: 6/11/2003
Last Login: 10/29/2008
From: Windsor, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Darrell,

Thanks for the tips. It seems you've looked more closely at the P-47 than I have.

Only problem is an electric sounds more like a Merlin than a Wright radial, but, oh well.

I would go with the AXI 5330/18 and use the same battery set as I am going to use on my Wild Hare 28%.

I think the TF P-51 might be too heavy for my setup, but perhaps not. It would certainly fly scale or better.

However, the P-47 with the hatch already in and a simple landing gear system (that apparently works okay) already installed, etc. along with being a bit lighter seems the way to go.

_____________________________

Tweet

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Darrell B.)
       Post #: 116

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/24/2005 2:16 AM   
Darrell B.



Posts: 399
Score: 100
Joined: 12/22/2003
Last Login: 10/18/2009
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Thumbs Up Tweet!!



Darrell

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Tweet)
       Post #: 117

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/29/2005 9:59 PM   
Hannu Vuorinen


 

Posts: 122
Score: 100
Joined: 8/12/2003
Last Login: 7/22/2008
From: Helsinki, FINLAND
Status: offline 		Gongrats for your great job, Darrel!

I am now starting myself new scale bird project, Finnish A/F Valmet TP-90 Redigo Turboprop,. 1/4 scale, and possible powerplant will be also
Flyware T-REX 300

BR,
Hannu

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Darrell B.)
       Post #: 118

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 9/1/2007 11:46 PM   
LaxLife72


 

Posts: 101
Score: 100
Joined: 7/6/2002
Last Login: 7/11/2009
From: Arlington, VA, USA
Status: offline 		We've just maidened our Top Flite Giant Scale P-51 ARF which we fitted with an operable scale 4 bladed 24" diameter Solo Prop from NRG Research in British Columbia:
www.soloprops.com (thanks Carl Peter!)
and a custom cut TruTurn spinner (thanks Ric and Stephanie!)
As you can see it not only looks great but it flew perfectly. AUW was 25 pounds on this setup
Neu 2215 1.5Y geared inrunner motor
Jeti Spin 200 ESC
2, ThunderPower 6s, 9000 mAh lipos in series for 12s, 9000 mAh
So much power we never got above half throttle. ESC and motor got hot so lots of ventilation is needed. Other than that it is a very cool plane!
Here are some pics:







and a litte video:
http://media.putfile.com/TopFlite-GS-P51d-Electric-Neu2215-12s-24--SoloProp

< Message edited by LaxLife72 -- 9/2/2007 1:33 AM >

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Darrell B.)
       Post #: 119

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/22/2007 2:43 AM   
Darrell B.



Posts: 399
Score: 100
Joined: 12/22/2003
Last Login: 10/18/2009
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Well everyone,

I have repowered the p-51 and I am waiting for a good day to test fly it. I have installed the AXI 5345/14 into it using a 14s2p pack of the A123 cells. The weight of the batteries is about the same as the Maxamps packs that I put in it origionally. this motor has allowed me to step up to a 21x14 prop instead of the 20x12 that I was using. I believe that there will a big jump in thrust in the uplines. I'll keep everyone apprised as to my progress.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to LaxLife72)
       Post #: 120

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/23/2007 9:27 PM   
algutkin


 

Posts: 580
Score: 100
Joined: 8/7/2003
Last Login: 11/4/2009
From: Orange, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Laxlife72,

Congrads on the maiden, it looked good.

I heard you suggest to your son that he not land the P-51 downwind, he listened just like my son. Typical son, tell him one thing, they do what they want.

Al

Hide Signatures

(in reply to LaxLife72)
       Post #: 121

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 10/27/2007 2:47 PM   
747drvr



Posts: 1332
Score: 105
Joined: 1/25/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: Dundas, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Hi Darrell ,

I'm sure it's in there somewhere but what did it end up weighing ?


Laxlife,

What RPM was your 24" 4 blader turning ? What pitch ? I'm thinking of using this airframe for the new Wren MW44 turboprop and I would love to swing a 4 blader !

Marc

< Message edited by 747drvr -- 10/27/2007 2:49 PM >

_____________________________

Marc Thomson
Dundas, Ontario, Canada

Hide Signatures

(in reply to algutkin)
       Post #: 122

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 11/30/2007 2:53 PM   
bladerunner1955


 

Posts: 270
Score: 100
Joined: 2/21/2004
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Huntington Beach, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Darrell, I just used an AXI 5345/16 in a Midwest Texan T-6 for a test bed for my Big Beautiful Doll ARF. I flew it on 12 cells with an 20/12 prop,Mez prop. The Texan weighs 21 pounds and this power system is more than enough for the P-51. Static amps were 65 on the bench. Here is a short clip of the Texan with this power set up. Just watch the take off and the landing. In between is just sky.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QXudsHCMay8

Hide Signatures

(in reply to Darrell B.)
       Post #: 123

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/12/2007 12:05 AM   
rc34074


 

Posts: 1027
Score: 100
Joined: 3/30/2002
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: lexington, OH, USA
Status: offline 		I have been avidly reading this and other threads about electric conversion of the Top Flite GS mustang. I have decided to go ahead with my own Top Flite conversion. However I am a novice in electric and would greatly appreciate advice from this forum. From what I can tell the AXI 5330/18 and CC HV 110 esc will give the best power to weight ratio that is readily available, at least for the money you spend. i see that a good 2 blade prop for this setup might be a 21 x 11e APC but it would be awesome to fly this with a 4 blade prop. I was looking for info on possible 4 blade props to use with this motor/esc but if there is info on a possible 4 blade for this setup I missed it. Where could I find a 4 blade prop for this motor/esc?

I'm also trying to decide about batteries for this plane. I'm doubtful about traditional li-po batteries so I've been reading about A123 and Apogee LiMn batteries. Looks like its easier for me to buy Apogee LiMn batteries except they would be pretty expensive to get 33 volts at 5000mah or so - maybe $675 or so for three 3s 5800mah 20c Apogee LiMn batteries. WOW!! Is there an A123 battery setup that would give an equivalent battery setup? Or some other spproach that would be safe but somewhat cheaper than the Apogee setup?

I'm an experienced Mustang pilot- I've been flying mustangs for 10 years on glow and gas, so I'm not nervous about flying this plane. I will revise the covering a bit and use Sierra giant scale retracts instead of the Robart 622-5 retracts recommended by Top Flite. This will require a little rework of the wing but I'm a mechanical engineer so this is no big deal to me. But I sure could use your help working out the power system setup.

Thanks for your help.

Ed

_____________________________

"there are fighters and there are targets"

Hide Signatures

(in reply to bladerunner1955)
       Post #: 124

RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/12/2007 9:31 PM   
Darrell B.



Posts: 399
Score: 100
Joined: 12/22/2003
Last Login: 10/18/2009
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Ed,
I have been toying with the idea using one of the Zinger 4 blade props. They come in several diameters, and pitches. I believe that with the 5345 you could use the 19x12 or the 20x12 four blade prop. This should be equivelent to the 22x14 that AXI recomends for this motor. As far as batteries, the A123 cells are a good option for the mustang. you can build a 14s2p pack that will be the equivelent of a 12s lipo pack. It will give you 4600mAh of capacity. It will weigh in the neighborhood of 60oz.
Darrell B.

Hide Signatures

(in reply to rc34074)
       Post #: 125

Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   next >   >>  
All Forums >> Electric Aircraft Universe >> Glow to Electric Conversions >> RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion
Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   next >   >>  




Jump to:


 
Google 



Search | Marketplace | Event Calendar | Local Clubs | Magazine | Product Ratings | New Products | Discussion Forums

Photo Gallery | Instructor Search | Field|Track|Marina Search

Advertisers | Hobby Vendor Resources | Rate Manufacturers | Sign In/Sign Up

SITE MAP!   : :   FORUM RULES

© 2001 - 2007 24-7 RC, LLC, all rights reserved.

Charities we support that also need your help
Yorkie Rescue | Humane Society | ASPCA | Crohn's-Colitis America

Kaango.com Classifieds

1.845RCU1