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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/13/2007 1:21 AM   
rc34074


 

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Status: offline 		Darrell - thank you for your reply. I did a little more reading and saw that solo props makes 4 blade props also, as used by Laxlife 72 on his conversion. i will look into the Zinger props - now that you mention it I remember that they make 4 blade props- they have a center hub and bolt 4 individual blades to the hub, if I remember correctly. This might be ok but it wouldn't take much to knock it out of balance or break one of the blades. so maybe the cost and ease of rep;acing a blade would be good to know. Why do you recommend the axi 5345 motor - more torque? seems like the 4 blade would need quite a bit more torque, depending on the blade.

I also looked into the A123 batteries. I see that A123 has a 6.6v 4600 mah battery that they sell. so if I bought 5 of these and put them in series i would expect to have 33 volts at 4600 mah - correct? of course this would cost me about $620 at their standard cost, but my LHS would sell me them for a total of $500 plus tax. If I bought the batteries and I disassembled the packs and resoldered them into this pack what would this cost? What charger would I use to charge either the standard A123 packs or your suggested 14s2p pack? Would I use a standard li-po charger at a higher rate?

I would welcome more input guys.

Thanks again Darrell.

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/13/2007 4:31 PM   
Darrell B.



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Status: offline 		First of all, I feel that the Solo props are extremely expensive and heavy. If I remember correctly, the center hub is like $140 or so for the 4 blade setup. The blades are qiote expensive and you will need a conversion kit to mount it onto your motor. The Zinger props are a fixed pitch, a negative when comparing to the Solo prop, but the initial cost for a 4 blade 20x12 is around $65 or so. If you look on the Zinger web site you can find out the exact price. The replacement blades run about $15 or so, I think that I figured for less than $100 I could buy the prop, and 2 or 3 replacement blades, and the weight is much less than the Solo setup. Also Zinger will cut a spinner to fit if you want.
The AXI 5345 is a monster of a motor, and will turn this prop with ease, especially with the 16 wind. I just don't know about what kind of top end you are looking for. I have the 5345-14 on my mustang turning a 20x15 APC and if flyes great at half throttle, and really cooks, faster than scale, at full throttle. I would have built the mustang with this motor origionally if it had been available.
The A123 batteries I'm using come from the Dewalt drill packs that people are buying off of E-bay. I'm running right at $10 per cell for i think 7 packs that I have pruchased. You will need to buy three of them and reconfigure them to make two 7s2p packs. You can solder in taps for balancing them when you assemble them. I use an Astro 109 charger for these packs. It sees them as a 6s Lipo pack which is the same charged voltage and a 7s A123 pack. I charge them at 6 to 7 amps and it takes less than an hour for a full charge. The total cost for the batteies for my mustang including wire and connectors is $315 and you have two cells left that you could use for your receiver pack.

Darrell B.

< Message edited by Darrell B. -- 12/13/2007 4:33 PM >

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/14/2007 2:06 AM   
rc34074


 

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Status: offline 		i did a little more research about the a123 cells. they are available in Dewalt 36 volt packs from Ebay for about $90 for each Dewalt pack. The Dewalt packs can be disassembled and turned into rc packs, which a number of people claim to be doing with good success. These packs are 10 cell packs of 2300 mah cells. so it looks to me like I could
1. buy 2 Dewalt batteries and disassemble them into packs of 10 cells without unsoldering them from the original pack soldering
2. solder wires and deans connectors to these two 10 cell packs 9probably with balancing wires soldered in there somewhere and
3. end up with two 10 cell A123 battery packs which I could connect in parallel through a disconnect and some kind of charging connector system to the speed control and motor.

this would seem to give me a nominal 36 volts at 4600mah supply to fly the mustang. I estimated how long would it fly on these two packs if I flew the mustang at full throttle (the way I like to fly my mustangs now ), assuming the motor/esc was drawing 3000 watts. Looks like these packs would need to supply say 33 volts or so at about 91 amps to provide the 3000 watts. 4600/1000= 4.6 amphours. 4.6 amphoursx60 = 276 amp minutes. 276 amp minutes/91 amps = 3 minutes? is this right - would this fly for only 3 minutes at full throttle?

anyway I am inserting some pictures of A123 battery packs from a site called slkelectronics in case you haven't seen them (which I imagine most of you have but here they are anyway

Ed

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< Message edited by rc34074 -- 12/14/2007 2:09 AM >

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/14/2007 2:34 AM   
Darrell B.



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Status: offline 		I think what you will find as you learn more about electric flying is that most people will opt to go with a setup that maximizes the voltage and uses a few less amps. This allows these large motors to draw fewer amps and still produce the watts needed to make our airplanes fly the way we want them to. My setup for the mustang is using 14 cells in a series or 50 volts hot off of the charger. This brings your 90 amps down to about 60 for the same 3000 watts.

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/15/2007 12:30 AM   
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Status: offline 		what I would like to achieve is performance similar to a 50cc gas engine. this would be about 7500 rpm with a 20x10 prop. so- i had figured that at 33 volts to get 7500 rpm the motor would need to have a kv of about 8000/33= 240, assuming i used a 10 pitch prop and the motor could turn the prop at 7500 rpm - only a 7% drop from ideal. is that realistic? 10x7500/12 = about 70 mph, but with losses maybe 60-65 mph. this seems maybe slower than I would expect to get with a good 50cc gas engine but would be ok.

so- with your 14 pitch prop does that put your 5345/14 motor in a more efficient rpm/speed range? i believe the 5345/14 is a lower kva motor- say about 200 or a little less. i had figured on using the 5330/18 which has a kva of about 250 or so. lots of options here - seems like the 4 blade prop is out of the question with the losses it would have. the maximum voltage the cc 110 esc can handle is 50 volts so if I forget the 4 blade prop and go back to a 2 blade propwhich motor would be more realistic/do-able? seems to me the 5330/18 is still a bit better for what I want to do but obviously I haven't run it. What motor/prop do you all think would work better, assuming I ended up with a 50 volt pack of the A123 cells at 4600mah?

thanks for your help.

Ed

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/17/2007 3:45 PM   
Darrell B.



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Status: offline 		Ed,
What you need to know about the wind number on a motor designation is that the lower the number of winds the higher the Kv of the motor. The 5345/14 has a Kv of 230, the 16 is around 200 and the 18 I believe is 176. The problem with your theory is that you will loose more rpm than you are figuring. I'm not sure of the percentage of loss, but with a motor with a Kv of 300 and 42 volts I was only able to turn a 20x12 prop around 7000 rpm. If you do the math the unloaded rpm would be around 12000. This setup was pulling almost 100 amps which also drops your available voltage because of the load on the batteries. I believe you need to deduct at least the percentage of loss using the effeciency that is given to the motor, and then start figuring from there. If your motor is rated at 200Kv and you are using 42 volts then your max rpm should be 8400, but then you should deduct lets say 10% for a 90% effecient motor. So, you are looking at a maximum of 7660 rpm and then you need to figure for losses due to voltage drop. The good thing is that with these big motors you don't see as much drop off until you really tax the motor with a very large prop.
I have never taken a radar reading on my mustang, but I read an article a couple of years ago where a guy built the older Hanger 9 77 inch mustang using the Hacker 50CLong. He was able to radar it at almost 125 mph! I think that mine is pretty close to that using the 20x15 prop.

Darrell

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/18/2007 3:41 AM   
rc34074


 

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Status: offline 		Darrell - thanks for your comments. I very much appreciate your efforts to help me understand what I can expect from the 5345/14 motor.

I looked up the exact ratings of these two motors as shown on Tower Hobbies.
The 5330/18 Electric Motor RPM/V is 259 - these other specs are not totally clear to me, but they are:
Max Efficiency: 90%
Max Efficiency Current: 25 - 60A (>85%)
Current Capacity: 75A/60s No. of Cells: max 32 cell NiMH/NiCd, max 10S LiPo

The 5345/14 Electric Motor RPM/V is 225
Max Efficiency: 93%
Max Efficiency Current: 36 - 84A (>85%)
Current Capacity: 110A/20s No. of Cells: 8 to 12 LiPo

Looks like the 5345/14 is definitely built to run at a significantly higher power draw, which will result in more power to the prop.

However I was wondering what rpm these two motors can turn the 20-15 prop, or some other 20 inch prop similar to what a 50cc gas engine can turn say 7500 rpm or so. I would also like to know if someone can tell me what the current draw (and therfore the flight time ) would be for each of these motors for the selected prop. I'm looking for the actual performance numbers, not something calculated. If I do this I would use a 50volt 4600mah set of A123 cells (probably 14 cells in series to get the 50 volts, and a castle creations 110 high voltage esc.) I would not expect the 5330 motor to turn the 20-15 prop at the same rpm the 5345 turns it, based on the specs above. so maybe the 5330 would use maybe a 20-13 or 14? On the other hand, would this prop draw too much power through the 5330 and tend to overheat the 5330? If so would it need to have a smaller pitch prop?

This is what I do with glow or gas engines- I ask around to determine what each engine can turn certain props and then I can tell if that engine will give me the performance I want in the plane I am "building." I'm just not certain exactly what to ask for these electric setups. seems like they are just now getting to the point where the performance of these setups is predictable without buying the setup and trying it out. And I'm not very comfortable just spending the money on a power package for this mustang without some fairly specific information on the performance of these two motors with specific props.

so- can you or anyone else give me this information? the rpm and current draw of one or both of these two motors with either the 20-15 or similar props?

thanks again

Ed

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/18/2007 6:01 PM   
Ron101



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Status: offline 		Hello Ed,
I too want to do a giant scale warbird soon.
So to start learning these large power systems I started with a 30% extra 260
My goal was to have the same or more power than a DA 50 which will fly most gaint warbirds well

Take a good look at neu motors I'm so impressed with the performance. They do cost a bit more but I feel are well worth it.

My extra has an 87" wingspan and weights 18 pounds
With the neu motor 1521 1.5y geared motor and a cc 110 esc
I'm running 12s 5000 mh tunderpower lipos

here are some results for you:

20x11 prop = 60.76 amps , 2612 watts , 42.31 volts , 8900 rpm = good speed, nice vertical , 8 to 9 min flights

22 x10 apc prop = 67.56 amps, 2865 watts, 41 volts , 8300 rpm = about the same as above with better vertical

24 x 12 apc = 98 amps , 4131 watt!!!, 38 volts, 7100 rpm = slower speeds but still fast, unreal vertical !!!! 5 minute flights
about 5.54 hp thats a 1/2 horse more than a da 50

so in the end I'm very pleased with this settup .... I'm out performing other 50cc sized gas planes ... I have over 10 flights and everthing is holding up well

in the mustang I would try something like a 22x12 or 22x14 for more speed and less vertical

here is a link to neu motor : http://www.neumotors.com

and a few pics of my settup

hope it helps some

Ron






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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/21/2007 12:53 AM   
rc34074


 

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Status: offline 		thanks for your replies. I've been busy getting ready for christmas so I haven't responded as quickly as I might otherwise. Still looking for solutions - neumotors has a lot of choices for motors.

Ed

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/24/2007 12:14 AM   
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Status: offline 		rc34074, Ya know I have found that the AXI motors are bullet proof. The 5330F3A motor on 8 cells of lipoly would be more than enough power for this plane. In fact that is what I will be using. This set up can swing a 18/12 prop no problem. You would never need full power with this set up but is nice for those emergency moments. I use this set up in my Cermark Pitts and it jams! Another good point is that no gearbox is needed. I have over 30 electric planes, most of them are this size and bigger.


< Message edited by bladerunner1955 -- 1/27/2008 12:09 PM >

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/24/2007 1:00 PM   
rc34074


 

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Status: offline 		bladerunner1955 - thanks for your message - do you have any amp draw data at full rpm on the 5345f3a motor with the 18 x 12 prop you mention? what is the exact prop make - is it an e-prop? APC? what esc do you use to get this performance? have you tried going to higher voltage setups? how did you decide to go with the 8 cell lipoly setup? is this two batteries in series? i tried to find the 5435f3a motor to get its specs- but when i searched for it i coudn't find it. who sells this motor? i did find an 5330f3a motor.

my preference would be a 20 inch prop - have you tested or flown your motor/esc setup with 20 inch props? If you have tested it how does it fly your planes?

thanks again

Ed

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 12/24/2007 3:45 PM   
Darrell B.



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Status: offline 		Ed,
The AXI 5345 motors are made by Model Motors.

Here is a link to their website..

http://www.modelmotors.cz/index.php?page=60&kategorie=5345

Just click on the motor that you would be interested in looking at, or go back to their main page to check out the other motors that they make. AXi motors have been the industry standard for outrunners for several years now.

Darrell B

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 1/27/2008 12:21 PM   
bladerunner1955


 

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Status: offline 		Its done and ready to maiden. I used a AXI 5345/16 on 12 cells, a 20/12 carbon fiber prop a spin 77 esc, amps are 65 at static. I should do the maiden next weekend? I need to call Darel at Sierra Giant Scale and get a nipple for one of the retracts.

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 1/29/2008 7:00 PM   
Ron101



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Status: offline 		Nice job..
looks real good
good luck with your maiden

Ron

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 1/29/2008 10:58 PM   
rc34074


 

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Status: offline 		bladerunner - great looking setup- especially the scale looking vent at the rear of the wing just ahead of the tailwheel. good luck with your maiden flight.

Ed Mullen

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/1/2008 7:32 AM   
bladerunner1955


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Ed, I am running the 5345/16 on 12 cells on my Texan and it is swinging a 20/12 carbon fiber prop. I get about 65 amps static bench test. Here is a clip of the texan with the power system the P-51 has in it. The very same set up. Last weekend had bad weather so I am hopeing this coming weekend will be better weather so I can do the maiden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNTAhicEtBU The Texan is about 20 pounds. the P-51 finished out at 23 pounds. I put a full cockpit in it and think it gained some weight in the process.

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/1/2008 3:11 PM   
bladerunner1955


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Ron and Ed, I am looking forward to the rush of the maiden. Hope the weather holds for a Saturday chance at it, I'll let ya all know. Hey Ed, the oil cooler flap is just tempary, after the maiden goes well(I hope!) I will make another scoop out of real thin aluminum and stick a servo on it to make it actualy work. But right now the flying weight is almost 24 pounds, just under??? Seems these electric conversions come out just a tad heaver than the gas planes? What are some of your guys planes weighing with all up weight sitting on the runway ready to fly?

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/1/2008 3:22 PM   
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Status: offline 		Good luck with the maiden! This is exciting!

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/1/2008 3:24 PM   
bladerunner1955


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Ron, The numbers you are posting about the neu motors are very impressive! To say the least. I have been using the AXI motors and have had good results with them but with the RPM and prop size you are mentioning I just might have to save a few bucks up and bit the bullet for a neu set up. I have looked on the web site at the neu motors but get a little flustered making a choice. After building and ridding OLD Harleys for so many years I guess this new information is just a bit much for this ol biker. I like how simple the AXI motors are to work with. I will have to recheck my RPM's and get back with you. Maybe you can give me an idea of what neu set up I might want??? Where do you fly? I am not that far away from you. I would bet we have been at fun flys at the same time. I live in Huntington Beach and travel to go to a good electric fun fly or even a combo gas and or what ever fun fly.
from Don Hofeldt in Huntington Beach.

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/1/2008 3:28 PM   
bladerunner1955


 

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Status: offline 		ANTARCTICA? Are you friggen crazy? What takes you up there? I love to see new places but I have never been to ANTARCTICA. Cool!
Bladerunner in SUNNY Huntington Beach California, come on down for some warm weather.

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/2/2008 4:51 AM   
Ron101



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Status: offline 		Hey Don,
There is two Brentwood’s in California.. I'm up north.. about 50 miles east of San Francisco and 50 mile south of Sacramento
The Neu motors are very powerful.. I'm doing EDF jets also and the Neu are the best thing out there for large EDF Jets
I hear you on the confusion on Nue's web site... but the good news is just call them when you have a project ..tell them what your doing and they will hook you up..
I also checked with E-Flightline.com they have done many large conversions..
My setup is the 1527 geared in runner.. with a CC110 on 12s
I'm going to shoot a video to show the power next time... I'm making a believer out of many of the gas guys
Until they hear the battery prices...lol
But it does have more power than a DA 50 .. if you run around full power you only get 5 minutes... it sounds like a turbo prop
But this is a 3D plane.. on a warbird you could run 1/2 to 3/4 and get 7 minutes (I'd guess)
I'm trying to figure out if the big AXI motor are more efficient?
I'd like to hear how many watts you’re putting out.. Then what type of times you’re getting

Good luck on a great looking plane
After a finish up my A-4 I’m going to do the Hanger 9 giant scale p-47
I’m thinking a a large hacker on it
Ron

I built the same plane for a friend but with a DA 50.. he loves it and it flys like a **** cat

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/2/2008 6:47 PM   
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Status: offline 		Just got home from the field after the maiden on the P-51,,,,, what a great plane! Almost to easy to fly and land. The power was good but I am going to try a little larger prop and do some amp test. It is hard to change things when they worked so well. But I just have to try the larger prop like a 22/10. Anyone who has not flown theirs yet,,,don't worry about a thing. Set the plane up with the C/G where they call it, I always have mine just a little nose heavy like maybe 5 degrees down on the nose when balancing. Only flew it once for a 5 min flight and now will go recharge the lipolys and see how they did. Thanks guys for your words of incourement.
Don
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWs8ZfS7xbg

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< Message edited by bladerunner1955 -- 3/5/2008 4:09 PM >

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/5/2008 12:16 AM   
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Status: offline 		Maiden went very well this last Saturday. Love this plane!
Bladerunner
OPPS! Guess I was a little excited and said it again.

< Message edited by bladerunner1955 -- 2/5/2008 12:17 AM >

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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/5/2008 6:41 AM   
Ron101



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Status: offline 		How much did you put back in the packs?
did your power feel good? and speed
great job

Ron


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RE: Top Flite Giant P-51 Conversion - 2/6/2008 3:11 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hi Ron,
I have not yet recharged the packs. I want to but have been busy and not able to be here enough to get the charge done. I will let ya know as I am wondering about 6500 mah packs for a longer flight. My maiden was only 4 mins. The power was great. I did not use full power much of the time. At about 5/8 throtal, it was moving right along looking very scale. Pleanty of power for the take off.

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