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Widebody 60 lost - 11/1/2004 5:22:33 AM   
lino0-7



Posts: 83
Joined: 5/22/2003
From: bay shore, NY,
Status: offline
As a habit I change batt every two years good or not.So I bought batt from some one local.Did the std prosedure charge with my trusted Digipulse for 16 hours.Went to field checked the voltage 5.4 did my 5 minute .Then after twenty or twentyfive minute of Bu Sh with the guys. Went down the run way ok after It took off it felt different after a few seconds It went into adive at full power,Iwas able to bring it back up maybe for a couple of seconds then went IN at fullswing.We went to the crash site we look and check every thing,and the New NoBS batt was at 3.6 voltz.one dead cell. Before I contacted NoBS just to be sure Igave a full charge did not hold it. Call him I gave him the battery pack in person.He open the wrap and check each cell and the answer,Well it has avented cell because I over charged the pack. Idid not know that my DIGIPULSE charger did not like his batteries.Never had any problem with any packs untill I use his batteries.If any body is using NoBS batteries please check them and recheck them often. Later

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RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/1/2004 12:10:52 PM   
bokuda



Posts: 495
Joined: 4/12/2002
From: South Deerfield, MA, USA
Status: offline
The Digipulse is a timed charger, not a peak detection charger. So, it is possible to overcharge a pack if they are already partially charged. It is not the fault of the batteries.

Sorry for your loss. The WB is a nice plane...

< Message edited by bokuda -- 11/3/2004 10:02:01 PM >

(in reply to lino0-7)
       Post #: 2

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/1/2004 2:09:02 PM   
JVB


 

Posts: 237
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: Hastings, NE
Status: offline
Sorry about the loss of your plane. NiMh or NiCad?? If you were charging the pack at the c/10 rate (the proper rate for a 16 hour charge), there is very little chance of overcharging. Are you sure that a cell vented or was there a solder or spot weld joint that failed??? The fact that it checked ok before you flew makes me wonder if a connection may have failed. If a cell failed during charging, it maybe should have shown up in your preflight voltage check.

(in reply to bokuda)
       Post #: 3

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/1/2004 2:27:06 PM   
ual767



Posts: 752
Joined: 12/3/2002
From: Chantilly, VA, USA
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I have several NoBs packs and am very pleased with them. Did you buy from a person or store? I don't think NoBS sells to stores. I would never -never buy a pack from an individual. What rate did you charge at? Did you do a formation charge (c/10) and cycle them a couple of times before flying? I also check under load before every flight. Might seem like overkill, but I found a bad cell between flights last yr on an SR pack and saved my plane. After that I went to 6v packs, so if a cell does die, you still have 4.8v and will not crash.
Sorry for the loss of your Widebody - I love mine. I would build another if mine crashed

_____________________________

Sponsored by my personal bank account

(in reply to JVB)
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RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/2/2004 4:32:20 AM   
lino0-7



Posts: 83
Joined: 5/22/2003
From: bay shore, NY,
Status: offline
Hi guys,thats why Iam crying love my Widebody.The pack was brand new.Delivered to me at our club picnic by NoBS(owner,sale rep,welder) and yes he supply the local hobby shops.My digipulse have not cooked a pack in all these years untill this event.He used the same excuse to another club member. Later

(in reply to ual767)
       Post #: 5

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/3/2004 7:09:37 PM   
Hangtime



Posts: 346
Joined: 6/5/2002
From: Babylon, NY, USA
Status: offline
Hi Gents..

We opened the pack up with him present, several other folks on hand, one of 'em a very skilled gent with a practical electronic engineering background. We found the pack assembled, welded & wired correctly; however we also found a significant amount of vented electrolyte and corrosion present on the nickel interconnect straps. One cell tested at .5v loaded... that cell was discolored & clearly had vented. To get to this condition significant temperature rise had to have occured as a result of charging conditions.

After cycle testing the remaining 3 cells we found capacity down by 15% below expected numbers (KR1100AAU AA Sanyo), another clear indication of electrolyte loss from overcharging. We also tested with an ESV after charge the 4 cell system as received.. and it immediately failed a 500ma load 10 second ESV test. We've since heard from other sources that this pilot has and uses a peak charger at the field, which reinforces the forensic evidence present on the pack.

Folks, I have zero control over what the owner does once he has the pack.. how it's charged, checked or the suitability for the pack in the installation used are out of my hands. In his application I would have used a 5 cell pack, in this application weight was the owners prime concern. IMHO he under equipped the aircraft, he didn't cycle test the pack before putting it in service and mis-read or did not perform an adequite ESV check before the flight. Material evidence points to an overcharge at some point before the loss and it's also certain we didn't hand him a new pack with a vented cell.

We take particular pains to assemble the best packs you can get anywhere. Regardless; an uncycled, untested battery pack is certainly not an aircraft insurance policy. Reality dictates that in an imperfect world a myriad of things can go wrong. To keep a pack from taking down a plane the pilot must never check his brain at the door, cycle testing of new packs and proper loaded ESV checks prior to flight are prerequisites to flight operations for all of us, no matter what pack technology or mfg the pilot decides to use... particularly in marginal installations like this one. (digital servo's & agressive pattern/3D flying).

While we mourn the loss of his aircraft, we cannot replace if for him (as he demanded) since the damage occured and the relevant circumstances of the loss were not related to conditions we control.

quote:

He used the same excuse to another club member.


The other 'other club member' managed to fry a 21 cell GP3300SCHR NiMH EP pack with a Nicad charger.. unrelated occurance, but also a user created loss. *sigh*



_____________________________

Steve Anthony
www.hangtimes.com
NoBS Batteries

(in reply to bokuda)
       Post #: 6

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/3/2004 7:41:51 PM   
smchale



Posts: 843
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: Malvern, PA, USA
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Sorry to hear of your loss. It was a great looking model! Do you think you'll build another WB60? What about the Epsilon? Any thought of the pros/cons of either?

_____________________________

Cheers, Sean McHale
www.strictlyscale.com....and Revver Brotherhood #101

(in reply to Hangtime)
       Post #: 7

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/3/2004 8:34:51 PM   
wvaneck



Posts: 17
Joined: 12/30/2003
From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Status: offline
Hi All,

Don't take this wrong, these are just my thoughts on the subject.

When I started flying 22 years ago (Europe) there were no advanced chargers available, at least not for the budget I had as a 15 year old kid. I just bought a charger that that 50, 250 and a 500 mh charge ports and you had to put your alarm to not let it overcharge your batteries.

Once a year you borrowed a home made battery checker to check the condition of your batteries, life was good at that time. I don't know if the planes that went down then were because of pilot error (although I doubt it), radio failure or battery problems.

I have been away from the sport for about 8 years, and when I came back last year I got really frustrated with the hobby shops as they did not have my trusted 3-port-charge-all chargers. In stead I bought a hobbico accucycle thing, because that was the charger to buy within my budget and the type of batteries I am using. I still have no clue as to what is what, and what to do with charging the batteries. I read the manual of the charger, doesn't mean a thing to me. listening to the shop people, just sales talk, listing to a friend, damn bought the wrong stuff.

The whole point of my long story is this, Technology is moving our sport rapidly forward, there are new battery types with each its own characteristics, there are dozens of chargers with features up-to-the-whazoo but in the end it is all about the knowledge you NEED to have about your OWN equipment.

That means that, if you are like me and not an electric engineer, I need to start learning about how to properly treat my batteries, start learning about proper use of my chargers, learning what an ESV test is and apply it and so on.

If you don't feel comfortable charging & testing new batteries for your new $2000 plane, talk to a friend who does have the tools and knowledge and have him do some cycles for you. This way you know that the batteries you bought are good and that you are safe to go.

Although batteries and radio equipment are made by professionals, nothing warnants you from a "Monday morning" product but adding your own no-knowledge into the mix makes it only worse.

Like I said, this is just my two cents worth, meant to be placed in a general context. Not directed to the poor guy who lost his WB nor the makers of NoBS batteries.

God, I love this sport.

< Message edited by wvaneck -- 11/3/2004 9:03:17 PM >

(in reply to Hangtime)
       Post #: 8

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/3/2004 9:01:29 PM   
Hangtime



Posts: 346
Joined: 6/5/2002
From: Babylon, NY, USA
Status: offline
Well said, wvaneck!!

Cheers!

(in reply to wvaneck)
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RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/4/2004 1:29:37 AM   
JVB


 

Posts: 237
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: Hastings, NE
Status: offline
It is also important to learn the habit (patterns) of your battery packs. I check my pack before each flight with a loaded meter. I know what the pack should read just after charging and how it discharges with flying. If something appears out of the ordinary, I don't fly. I replace all of my packs every two years. I have never had a pack failure. Get to know your packs!!

(in reply to Hangtime)
       Post #: 10

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/4/2004 4:42:34 AM   
lino0-7



Posts: 83
Joined: 5/22/2003
From: bay shore, NY,
Status: offline
I am not new to this hobby.I have never heard of cycling a new battery in 20 plus years in this hobby.Peak charger is part of any flight box.I dont under equiped my model there are not cinder blocks.And the esv that I use was made by the engineer that you mentioned.Iguess have to keep buying the same cheapo batteries they dont fail.Maybe your packs are too advance for me.

(in reply to JVB)
       Post #: 11

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/4/2004 5:19:21 AM   
can773



Posts: 1642
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Status: online
I have had 2 of 2 - 4 cell 1500 NoBS packs go bad on me, first one was within days of receipt, second just went south and would not peak up after about 50 flights. I also have a 4 cell 1100 that didnt last more than about 10 flights before it would not peak up fully. No hard use, proper forming charges done to all the packs they just didnt last. Packs are very well built and look excellent but they just have not performed for me the same as the batteries I have got from RadicalRC. In my 14 years of flying these are the first packs I have ever had behave like this.......

Fortunately it never cost me a plane, however I would not consider purchasing NoBS packs in the future.

< Message edited by can773 -- 11/4/2004 5:21:44 AM >



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RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/4/2004 6:55:39 AM   
Hangtime



Posts: 346
Joined: 6/5/2002
From: Babylon, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Packs are very well built and look excellent but they just have not performed for me the same as the batteries I have got from RadicalRC.


Interesting; to say the least. The cells we use are Sanyo's.. (as does Radial R/C ) and date coding will reveal that ours are quite fresh. Further, we've had our setup and assembly techniques verified by the most respected independent expert available to us in the industry.

NoBS Review

What happened, how; why.. in conditions we can't duplicate, under circumstances we can't verify... frankly there's nothing beyond using quality Sanyo cells and quality welding and finishing materials and techniques that any pack assembler can do to affect service life or suitability for the application. How it's charged, used, tested are all outside the control of any assembler. There is no 'magic', no smoke & mirrors, no hype that can produce a pack thats better or worse than the components used to assemble it.. and that's where our ability (or any other assemblers) to affect the outcome ends.

(in reply to can773)
       Post #: 13

RE: Widebody 60 lost - 11/4/2004 1:36:47 PM   
JVB