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All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 12:58:47 AM   
FlyNBHappy


 

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From: Peanut Gallery, USA
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After seeing all the postings about bearings (how to replace, where to buy, ceramic vs. steel, Swiss made vs. Chinese made vs. Japanese made vs. Turkish made, etc.), I'm wondering if this is a common "maintenance" thing for 2 or 4 stroke glow engines? I've been running my engines (2 and 4 strokes) at least once a week for the past several years and I haven't given much thought about the bearings. I'm not religious about after run oil (maybe once a month if I remember) and I use 0% nitro with 20% oil (sometimes castor/syn, sometimes 100% syn) for all my engines.

What are the symptoms for bearings failure? Reduced rpm? Engine does not run?

Should I follow the "if it runs, don't worry about it" method? or Should I change them on yearly basis? or???

What happens to other parts of engine if bearings fail?

Are people replacing bearings because of:
a) failed bearings
b) improved performance
c) just feel like taking their engines apart
d) yearly maintenance
e) other reasons....

I'm "bearings" clueless so please give me the lowdown on bearings.

Thanks.
       Post #: 1

RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 1:38:07 AM   
downunder



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It's kinda difficult to say exactly why bearings rust or fail but it seems to be confined almost exclusively to RC engines. By this I mean it's almost unheard of with CL engines. About the only real differences in how the engines are operated is that most CL flyers insist on using a high percentage of castor in the fuel and at the end of each and every flight it stops (from necessity ) at full throttle from lack of fuel. I'm not saying that RC engines should be stopped like this every time but they should be at the end of the last flight for the day. Full throttle and either pinch the fuel line or remove it until the engine stops turning.

If you use an electric starter all the time then you'll probably never know there's a problem until a bearing lets go. If you prime by hand then take note of how smoothly the engine turns over. Any signs of roughness needs to be looked at.

(in reply to FlyNBHappy)
       Post #: 2

RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 2:06:34 AM   
w8ye



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I've mostly considered that rusty bearings were more common in the Eastern US than in the Western US.

The amount of moisture in the air is a contributing factor.

I noticed that some people have more bearing problems than others. It must be somewhat related to some operation practice like type of fuel, where the engine is stored, and how it is shut down, and after run oil.

I've also noticed that some engines have more problems than others.

The rust has no preference over the country of origion of the bearing.

Enjoy,

Jim

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(in reply to downunder)
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RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 2:25:41 AM   
Ernie Misner


 

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You shouldn't have written this post. You are bound to have some bearing failures now....:-)

More than likely though, it is the running of some castor (usually) that has saved you. Synthetic does not have much corrosion protection ability. Personally I would use after run every time, especially if running synthetic. Be sure to run all the fuel out of the engine, too.

Ernie

(in reply to w8ye)
       Post #: 4

RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 3:23:44 AM   
IronCross



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Sure are a lot of ways to look at this... I run my engine/s dry at the end of the day and use plenty of afterrun oil... A few others at the field believe differently... They never run there engines dry believing the oil in the fuel left in the engine will provide protection and they never use afterrun oil.. This has been going on for several years now... To date I have replaced one more set of bearings then they have... Makes one wonder ...... As above this is a very low humidity enviroment we are in here... We all use the same club fuel etc ....

(in reply to Ernie Misner)
       Post #: 5

RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 6:32:57 AM   
DarZeelon



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All,


Let's not make this another Castor oil thread!

bearing failures from corrosion are less likely to happen if:

1. The engine is run dry at the end of the day's flying (less hygroscopic methanol is left in the engine).
2. Enough after-run oil oil (or ATF, or Miracle, air tool oil, or...) is used to coat the bearings' races and balls.
3. Less nitro is used (less nitric acid residues left in the engine).
4. Lower ambient humidity.
5. Fuel containing a significant percentage of Castor oil is used.

Synthetic oils made in the USA; like the one in Cool Power, do offer significantly less corrosion protection (and wear protection) than Castor. But some would swear by their Sachs Aerosynth II/Aerosave and Motul Micro European made synthetics, that they are great.... They still don't have the high flash and flame points of Castor oil...

Roger's experience with running the engine dry and using after-run is an exception to the rule. S@#t does happen sometimes...

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(in reply to IronCross)
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RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 1:31:21 PM   
IronCross



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From: NearBy, AZ, USA
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Then why do you keep brining Castor oil up ?????

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RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 1:52:06 PM   
DarZeelon



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...Because both ZeroNitro and Ernie Misner preceeded in bringing it up...

That is why I thought I should give a 'heads up'.

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RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 2:53:53 PM   
FlyNBHappy


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarZeelon

...Because both ZeroNitro and Ernie Misner preceeded in bringing it up...

That is why I thought I should give a 'heads up'.



Leave me out of the Castor oil debate (just because I said I use it at times) .

All I wanted to know was:
a) why people are changing their bearings?
b) what are the symptoms of "failing" bearings? and if I'm damaging anything by ignoring them.
c) do I need to change them regularly or just be happy that my engines are still running after these years?

Now take the Castor vs. Syn debate elsewhere.

Thanks.

(in reply to DarZeelon)
       Post #: 9

RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 3:36:35 PM   
ZAGNUT



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From: tel-aviv, ISRAEL
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quote:

All I wanted to know was:
a) why people are changing their bearings?


because they trust their engines to synthetic oils...


quote:

b) what are the symptoms of "failing" bearings? and if I'm damaging anything by ignoring them.


engine makes funny noises, feels gritty when turned over slowly, shows signs of rust on bearing parts...all because of synthetic oil or not using afterun oil...

quote:

c) do I need to change them regularly or just be happy that my engines are still running after these years?


if they're clean and smooth they're good...keep using castor


dave

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(in reply to FlyNBHappy)
       Post #: 10

RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 4:06:10 PM   
bob27s



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From: Cleveland, OH, USA
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bottom line here.......

some engine manufacturers use bearings that were designed for
1) roller skates and/or conveyor belts
2) contant lube applications
3) machine use, where the RPM is generally below 5000 rpm.

Yes, they are adequate, durable and will function in the application.
If the engine is run hard, (beyond typical rated RPM) the bearings may not stand up.
However, over time, the matierals they are made of will simply fail either mechanically or through corrosion.

For some reason, bearings originating the far east have proven to be the least durable over time, in all respects.

Don't let the idea of stainless steel or ceramic fool you. Almost all bearings need good lubrication or they will wear. If turning at 10,000-15,000 rpm as most typical small RC engines turn....... they need constant lubrication from the fuel. A well designed engine has lubrication paths to help fuel/oil migrate to those locations.

Also, do not let the ABEC rating fool you either. That is a measure of tolerance, not directly realated to durability under heat and load.

A model engine is a nasty place for steel parts. Burnt fuel creates acidic materials, which, when left on an unprotected surface, will rapidly corrode a steel or iron part. Air/moisture/chemicals combined in any fashion will corrode steel, alumiunum, any metal.

Several fuels on the market include rust inhibitors and 'coating' enhancing additives. These help somewhat. As noted, Castor oil tends to provide a coating that clings to metal parts... provides good wear and anti-corrision properties. But it alone is not a fix-all for crappy bearings.

The best thing you can do with the stock bearings, run the engine dry of fuel after each flying session, and load the engine up with several good squirts of Marvel Air Tool Oil....... or a similar air tool oil product. The air tool oils are great at coating, AND displacing moisture. I avoid ATF since the wrong one can damage your engine (some contain friction additives). After-run proceedures are your best defence.

Although.. its not always enough. Back in the 1980's when we flew the OS-P .61 pattern engines, one of the best engines of its day, the bearings were a known weak link. Some of us even tried running the engine after a flying session with alcohol/castor only fuel... for 3-4 minutes at idle.... just to coat and clean out the engine. It was a monster hassle. It worked, but only in part. It prevented corrision a bit, but the rear bearing still wore (and sometimes failed) under load. It simply was not sufficient for the load. It came to the point for many of us where any new engine was immediately disassembled, and the bearings replaced before it was ever run.

Clearly, the optimal solution is to equip your engine with bearings properly suited for the job. For sport use, no need to go through the extreme outlined above. When the originals wear out, its easy to replace them with good products.

Symptoms of failing bearings:
1) phycical "Feel" while turning the engine over. Crankshaft should rotate freely with no grinding, resistance or noticable flat spots.

2) suddenly the engine is behaving 'weird' and changing the glow plug does not correct the situation. A worn bearing can create an air leak, creating unstable crankcase pressure and fuel draw... resulting in inconsistant performance.

3) In flight 'sound'. IF you hear a raspy or rattling sound while in flight..... worth checking the bearings. Bearings on their way out will sound very unique.

4) If the engine has been "in the dirt", there is a very good chance there is dirt in the front bearing. Usually even if its a shielded bearing. Do not assume it will clear up.

At some point during a season its worth while pulling the backplate off of the engine to take a look at the rear bearing.

When should you change bearings??
1) you detect one of the above conditions.
2) If the engine has been hard in the ground, its usually worth changing the bearings. Its not hard to do or expensive.

If you maintain and store your engines properly, the original bearings will tend to last a long time. This tends to be more true for "older and vintage" engines (maybe they just had better bearings to start with). Even on my racing engines, I have the original bearings in several of them....even with them running very hard each time out.

But again, if the engine came with conveyer belt bearings in the first place, keep an eye on them for that first season. With those, its just a matter of time before they wear or corrode to death. If they survive that first season, you are caring for them fairly well.

Boca offers very good replacement bearings. Other good sources available too.

Bob

< Message edited by bob27s -- 11/9/2004 4:11:35 PM >



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       Post #: 11

RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 5:08:47 PM   
yard-dart



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From: West Monroe, LA, USA
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I had to replace the bearings in my Saito 1.00. They went bad after about a year and a half or so, and I was running all synthetic fuel at the time (lord forbid I use the "C" word). My engine was making a whining noise, and the oil residue coming from the muffler was a dark grey. I pulled the backplate off of the engine to inspect the innards, and that's when I saw them,dark brown bearings. Once I got them out, several of the balls were rusted to where they would no longer roll. That's where I was getting the whining noise, and the dark residue.

I replaced the bearings with ones from the local bearing shop, front and back for around $10.00. I have switched to fuel containing the "C" word and I haven't had a problem since. I live in Louisiana where the humidity is horendous, I don't run my engines dry, and I don't use after run oil. I know that I may very well have to replace the bearings again simply because I don't do the mentioned, but it's no sweat to me. The bearings are cheap, and it gives me something to do. Then again, I may never have to change them again simply because fo the "C" word. Who knows. It really doesn't matter to me either way.

So, if your engine is running fine, and not making any strange noises, leave it alone. It'll probably let you know if something ever does go wrong.

(in reply to bob27s)
       Post #: 12

RE: All this talk about bearings? - 11/9/2004 7:08:16 PM