RE: Membership decline???  
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RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 6:41:51 AM   
50+AirYears


 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 7/29/2004
From: Lorain, OH, USA
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My current club kind of matches what seems to be happening with the AMA regarding the small proportion who actually take part in trying to provide guidance through communication with the officers or voting.
We have somewhere around 130 members according to the latest report from the membership chair. Of these 130, we are lucky to get 25 people at most meetings. Of these 25, maybe 10 to 12 actually take part in the discussions. Several of the other people will set in the back of the room discussing among themselves contrary views on the item being discussed. When a vote is called, most of the vote will usually be for the proposal. The negatives who didn't take part in the discussion generally will watch to see how the vote is going, and then vote with the majority they really disagree with.
Of course, many of the guys who don't come to meetings will S***mouth the officers for "Railroading" something that's no good for the club. And some of these complainers are the guys who are unable to accept reasonable safety oriented field rules, INCLUDING no flying over the pits, and will even complain about being told to get their plane low when a larger full size job is making a long shallow glide slope approach to a near by community airport.
Because we have been having trouble getting nominations for officers for several years now, we have had to go with two year terms of office, and split the timing on the terms so we only replace half the officers in a given election. We had to change the By-Laws to allow single person nomination for a position. It was kind of sad to see that our president has to drop out this year for personal reasons, but almost couldn't get anybody to accept nomination, except a new member who has only been in this sport a little over a year, and that was after almost 15 minutes.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 26

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 7:21:24 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

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From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
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I am sure that what you are seeing is a direct result of the instant gratification (IG) bunch. That bunch normally does not get involved in anything that is going to cost more than a hours worth of time and being an officer is a long term high time cost commitment. THIS is a problem a better communicating AMA could help with. Educating the IG bunch to knowing exactly what it takes to create, maintain, and operate a flying field. Most have no clue, but woe unto the club EC that happens to be holding the sack when a field is lost! By the same token, many of the IG folks when educated, are willing to help fund some of the activities a club needs to get done to have a flying field, if their volunteer work ethic is low. At least they will contribute if they are educated to see that their interests are served.

Is that the bunch you are talking about?

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to 50+AirYears)
       Post #: 27

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 7:24:03 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Hey Jim, you did good. You proved my point in another thread in this forum and JR sent me a note saying I failed to comprehend what Bob Hunt was saying in the special issue. To me it was plain English that Hunt said we were getting 13 issues this year. I emailed Hunt however he never answered. So we have. Read it again JR!.
When I read your post I went to the AMA site and saw the November cover on the home page so I FAILED to investigate further. My BAD! I have not yet received the Dec. MA. Thank you for the above.


Hi Horrace

I received my November issue in September. I received the "Special Issue" in October. I assume I will receive the December issue currently featured on the AMA site this month (November). I received one issue, and only one, each month prior to September. I expect to receive the January 2005 issue in December 2004. The way I count, that is still 12 issues for the year.

Hunt explained that the "Special Issue" was only to change the date on the magazine to the month it is received to fall in line with other magazines do, i.e. send the mag so that it is received about 2 weeks before the date on the mag.

Did you get two issues one month? I didn't. One issue each month is still 12 for the year, the way I count.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

I also wish to establish an early notice that the CFO, The AMA EVP, never tells us about AMA financial situations. potential problems and solutions, etc., etc. He simply PARROTS that information which is past history and is provided by the outside paid auditors. All he has to do is a bit of cut and paste and IMO, he considers himself done with his job as he sees it. IMO such neglect of the membership's financial well-being from the Second-in-Command is more detrimental to the AMA's growth than Brown's dictatorial behavior.


The following is from the July 2004 EC Minutes, President's Report:
"Authorization was given for an Environmental Site Assessment (ESA) of the Reese Airport property and AMA has received the Phase I assessment. It was suggested to proceed with a Phase II ESA. (Cost approximately $7,500-$15,000.) Prior to the Phase II assessment, the Executive Director will request 3-5 year financials on the airport."

The following is from the EC motions at the October 2004 EC meeting:
"Motion V: Moved and seconded that AMA drop the Right of First Refusal on Reese Airport. Motion passed unanimously."

Horrace, perhaps the efforts of the EVP are not quite so transparent as you assume. Occasionally, knowing what transpired is preferable to reading between the lines. Who do you think suggested obtaining the financials? Examples of his actions are much more prevalent than you might like to believe.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 28

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 7:34:00 AM   
scrcc_guy



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From: Providence, RI, USA
Status: offline
Sadly, what you discribe exists throught the entire R/C community. Your observations are pretty much universal. Winston Churchil may as well have been talking about R/C clubs than the Royal Airforce :-)**. I call it the 5% rule. The same 5% attend the meetings, run the contests, cook the breakfasts and, well, generally do everything. There is an additional 10% that can be coersed into doing things usually if you shame them into it, but the remaining 85%, forget it! These guys are those who join only to fly. They never raise a finger or give a helping hand yet are the first to cry foul when a rule is enacted which impacts their fun.
Regretably, both groups are suseptable to attrition. The 85%'ers because they don't give a rats a.. and come and go as they please, many times flying rogue. The other 15%'ers finally give it up after years of being the ones doing everything
Doomed?, I hope not. But you can certainly see what we're up against

** "Never in the course of human events has so few done so much with so little for so many" (with apologies to history) You get the idea.

< Message edited by scrcc_guy -- 11/21/2004 12:40:32 PM >

(in reply to 50+AirYears)
       Post #: 29

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 12:16:49 PM   
iflyj3



Posts: 1018
Joined: 5/18/2002
From: Paris, KY, USA
Status: online
Having been the Pres of our club for two years at the turn of the century, I observed first hand the club membership fluctuation. We would end the year at about 180 members. However, if one looked at the roster, you would see a core group of about 130 members that were there year after year.

We have free training on Tuesday nights and during the past years it was difficult to have enough instructors to handle all of the newbies. This year the opposite was true and the newbies were scrace.

I also observed that out of about 10 newbies we trained, we were lucky if 2 of then stayed in the club for 3 years. We were basically retaining enough for the attrition loss.

This year is a different story, our membership is at about 140 members and there are very few newbies.

Why? My personable observation is the park flyers are the major reason. Instead of laying down $400 for a trainer and weeks on training and then hanging it up, they are buying a $100 park flyer and by themself driving it into the ground or the top of a tree and quiting at that point. Yes, they are part of that IG group.

This does affect the revenue of the club and AMA in that they are not paying the yearly dues for the short period of time they are around.

_____________________________

Dan Thompson (Long live the ACE MicroPro 8000)
Visit www.groups.yahoo.com/group/mp8k for support

(in reply to scrcc_guy)
       Post #: 30

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 2:46:21 PM   
fyrboss1


 

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I was an AMA member from 1976-1988. I was the president of a club, contest director and scribe for the club news paper in two separate clubs. I fully supported AMA, through building a new organization headquarters, right up until the time I requested their kissing an area just below my hip pockets. I had watched the development of non wooden props for combustion engines, but refused to use one due to several accidents, both in the air and to pilots on the ground. Not being able to see cracks from damage and having the front end of the acft disintegrate from vibration when the prop finally let go was impressive. The damage from props, that almost become invisible while spinning, caused severe damage to several pilots that I knew. After I was nailed by one of these props, by having my arm bumped by the pilot I was helping, I made several complaints to both AMA and the prop manufacturer, to no avail. I simply requested that the props be colored on their tips so as to be seen while spinning. This probably would not have saved my finger in my case, but it would have gone a long way in the search for safer props. The cold shoulder I was given by AMA was taken more as a screw you, we aren't going to do anything that might anger an advertiser of our magazine. I let my membership lapse and will never again tout AMA as an organization worthy of support. I recently got back into RC and will fly where I feel comfortable. I don't consider my self a rebel and authority is something I don't challenge often. But, take my money, represent me, or do without my money. I also understand that you can't please everyone. While president of my club, we lost our long held flying field. AMA was useless in our case. We fought our own battles. If you want to see friends split, have your/their flying field taken away with no one willing to help you fight the battle. I personally think AMA could be replaced with an organization dedicated to the support of it's members and a more free acceptance of their members ideas. Just take the 55 lb. maximum rule. If you want to put the time and effort into putting a 125 lb. model in the air, increase your insurance liability, conform to realistic safety and construction norms and go fly. The fact that the membership seems to be going down, from what I have read, is an indication that the organization needs changing, my rantings not withstanding.

(in reply to iflyj3)
       Post #: 31

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 4:09:41 PM   
Hossfly



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From: New Caney, TX, USA
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quote:


Hi Horrace

I received my November issue in September. I received the "Special Issue" in October. I assume I will receive the December issue currently featured on the AMA site this month (November). I received one issue, and only one, each month prior to September. I expect to receive the January 2005 issue in December 2004. The way I count, that is still 12 issues for the year.

Hunt explained that the "Special Issue" was only to change the date on the magazine to the month it is received to fall in line with other magazines do, i.e. send the mag so that it is received about 2 weeks before the date on the mag.

Did you get two issues one month? I didn't. One issue each month is still 12 for the year, the way I count.


Other mags: I've had the Jan. 2005 MAN in hand for 2 weeks. The 01/05 RCR will arrive any day. I have issues of MA Jan. 04 through Nov. 04. That makes 11 issues. I will receive a Dec. issue. That makes 12. Then I have a SPECIAL ISSUE, and 12 plus 1 equals 13 in my 1st grade math level. As in my simple accounting, 2 + 2 still equals 4, not whatever some accountant wants it to be. Maybe you are a student of the "new math".

Is there some law that says a publisher cannot adjust his mailing schedule to get his cover dates in line with a desired dating? What a crock?

Personally I don't place much faith in anything that comes from AMA administration in the form of WHY! I do have faith in what they DID as I can observe the results. Back in my early 20s as one of the USAF SAC's top bomb aimers, I learned that good Ol' Curt LeMay had the right idea to get results: "Don't bother me with your problems, just show me your results." Having Frank Granelli on staff as emag. editor and a writer in MA, plus having a non-resident MA editor are not my ideas of good results.

_____________________________

H. Cain AMA L-93

T Roosevelt "..the man who really counts in the world is the doer, NOT the mere critic, the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, NOT the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."

(in reply to iflyj3)
       Post #: 32

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 5:02:18 PM   
combatpigg



Posts: 10136
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From: arlington, WA, USA
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My point is that I think the bulk of the declining numbers has less to do with the failings of the AMA, or the trend of new comers switching to park flyers, but more to do with people in general cutting back on their expensive hobbies. A cross check with other hobby type organizations might show the same trend for the past 4 years?

_____________________________

Led Zeppelin is NOT "old fogie" music.

(in reply to 8178)
       Post #: 33

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 5:43:37 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
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From: Corona, CA,
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

quote:


Hi Horrace

I received my November issue in September. I received the "Special Issue" in October. I assume I will receive the December issue currently featured on the AMA site this month (November). I received one issue, and only one, each month prior to September. I expect to receive the January 2005 issue in December 2004. The way I count, that is still 12 issues for the year.

Hunt explained that the "Special Issue" was only to change the date on the magazine to the month it is received to fall in line with other magazines do, i.e. send the mag so that it is received about 2 weeks before the date on the mag.

Did you get two issues one month? I didn't. One issue each month is still 12 for the year, the way I count.


Other mags: I've had the Jan. 2005 MAN in hand for 2 weeks. The 01/05 RCR will arrive any day. I have issues of MA Jan. 04 through Nov. 04. That makes 11 issues. I will receive a Dec. issue. That makes 12. Then I have a SPECIAL ISSUE, and 12 plus 1 equals 13 in my 1st grade math level. As in my simple accounting, 2 + 2 still equals 4, not whatever some accountant wants it to be. Maybe you are a student of the "new math".

Is there some law that says a publisher cannot adjust his mailing schedule to get his cover dates in line with a desired dating? What a crock?

Personally I don't place much faith in anything that comes from AMA administration in the form of WHY! I do have faith in what they DID as I can observe the results. Back in my early 20s as one of the USAF SAC's top bomb aimers, I learned that good Ol' Curt LeMay had the right idea to get results: "Don't bother me with your problems, just show me your results." Having Frank Granelli on staff as emag. editor and a writer in MA, plus having a non-resident MA editor are not my ideas of good results.

Hi Horrace

Whether I can count the number of issues received in one year is rather unimportant. On the other hand, you have expressed an interest in running for EVP next year. That makes your ability to calculate the number of issues somewhat more important. If you should still be eligible for the position, come time for nominations, the ability to count the issues received may become more relevant.

Your consistent disdain of historical data, in the form of financial statements, bewilders me. Those statements are exactly where I found the information about the cost of advertising in MA approaching the income from advertising in MA, which I first posted on this forum. You have, since, embraced this as a major issue. I will not debate the content of MA. I have never published a magazine. I have, however, had to look at financial documents to determine the financial well being of businesses. There is much more to be gleaned from the statements by those that know what they are analyzing… much more.

Personally, I don’t care what the issue of MA is dated, as long as it is normally sequential, so I can reference it later, if I so chose. One issue dated “Special Issue”, to change the timing, is irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. Certainly not worth the time Hunt (in MA), you or I spent writing about it, if 12 issues were sent in one year. On the other hand, if the count is 13, as you conclude, it does make a difference.

I really do not wish to get in a running battle with you again this year. I would not have responded to your post in this thread, had you not “outed” a private communication to you, from me. I suppose I should have known better… it’s not the first time. Please consider leaving me out of your posts in the future.

I guess we will have to let the readers of this forum determine the count of issues recieved in 2004.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 34

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 5:55:54 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
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From: Corona, CA,
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

I have issues of MA Jan. 04 through Nov. 04. That makes 11 issues. I will receive a Dec. issue. That makes 12. Then I have a SPECIAL ISSUE, and 12 plus 1 equals 13 in my 1st grade math level. As in my simple accounting, 2 + 2 still equals 4, not whatever some accountant wants it to be. Maybe you are a student of the "new math".



Horrace

BTW, if you add in the January 2005 issue you will recieve in December 2004, that will give you 14 issues for the year, based on your calculations. Perhaps it is not me who is the student of "new math".

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 35

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 6:00:30 PM   
scrcc_guy



Posts: 66
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From: Providence, RI, USA
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If past reports by the National Retailers Association, and the Rhode Island Chamber of Commerce indicated, during times of economic downturns, it is the blue ticket items which take the hit first (Automotive, Appliance and Real Estate). Discretionary spending such as dinners out, entertainment and hobbies actually increase during economic hard times. If your theory is correct, we'd see country clubs, marinas and gun clubs closing all over the place; but that isn't the case.
As I stated in some discussion group somewhere, some time ago; I believe the point has been reached where the "average" member has reached the point where they percieve they're at the point of diminishing returns (with regards to the cost of membership and the benefits derived from that membership). And they're looking for (and finding) alternatives. As one interested contributor noted, the dues now cost more than the price of an eflyers plane!
The AMA has evolved into a beast of which it was never intended. Rather than a central servicing organization arranging low cost group insurance, representing our interests in Washington (and throwing in a Mag to boot) it now finds itself in the unenviable position of Landowner and jack of all trades (and it does only some of it right).
No, the AMA has some culpability in this as do we all. The question is can it be fixed, so better still SHOULD it be fixed??

(in reply to combatpigg)
       Post #: 36

RE: Membership decline??? - 11/21/2004 6:12:46 PM   
J_R


 

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I guess a lot of people would blame the decline in membership on the cost of dues. Personally, I don’t believe that. The course the AMA has taken, for some time, has been to stifle technological growth. The insurance benefits, which could, and should be a major plus for the AMA, have become a negative which detractors site as the only reason for the AMA’s continued existence.

I think the first thing that must be admitted, is that insurance is the engine that drives AMA membership. Without providing the members of the AMA with this benefit, many members would not join. Most clubs would not exist, and many landlords would refuse to rent or lease to clubs.

The common image of the insurance underwriters sitting, like vultures, on the shoulders of the EC members at each EC meeting is wrong. The insurance company, for all practical purposes, has no presence. The AMA’s insurance agent, Larry Johnson, is normally present at EC meetings. Carl Maroney, AMA Director of Special Services, is also normally present. Carl sets on several committees and is not there just because of his insurance knowledge. Larry has, at least in my opinion, the best knowledge of what is in the policy, and can, on occasion, answer questions about the coverage. Larry attends the EC meetings at his own expense. The insurance company is not there telling the EC that if they do, or do not, pass this motion, it will change your premiums. Premiums are based, essentially, on claims history, although extraneous factors such as 9/11, and current insurance market conditions, also have a substantial affect. The AMA does have a responsibility to make the insurance company aware of potential claims (actual accidents), and those may be factored into premiums in the future. Many AMA members seem to think the insurance company sits there and drives the actions of the AMA, and this is not the case. Certainly, insurance is, and should be, a consideration, but only a consideration.

Just what is the value of the liability insurance to individual members? The truth is, as individuals… not much. In recent years, the average number of personal major liability claims related to flying, as opposed to liability claims against clubs and landlords, has averaged between one and two, where the AMA liability coverage was involved. In the vast majority of situations, homeowners insurance covers such claims. Keeping in mind that the cost of insurance per member is on the order of $22 per year, including the SIR (Self Insurance Reserve) if one asks “What’s in it for me?” the answer is not very much… or is it?

Most clubs would not have a site if the insurance did not cover clubs and landlords for liability. Half of the liability claims made, on a dollar basis, not on the number of claims basis, involve clubs and landlords. The coverage for non-club owned landlords is not subject to the safety code. It is a full blown liability policy. Clubs pay a maximum of $120 per year for an AMA charter, club liability insurance, and liability insurance for the landlord. It’s obvious that the individual membership dues subsidizes the insurance for clubs. Without clubs, of course, many of us would have no