Home-brew Diesel Fuel (Full Version)

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RhyanO -> Home-brew Diesel Fuel (11/30/2004 2:36:20 PM)

I am interested in making a diesel head for an OS 60FP.

I would like to know if anybody has made their own blend of diesel fuel?

Just curious.

Ryan



ghost123uk -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (11/30/2004 3:04:36 PM)

I have certainly had plenty of experience in making my own fuel for many (many !) years.
Though only for std motors like PAW's, Olly T's and ST 15's etc.
I suspect that a brew for a 10cc motor may require a slightly different mix.

Firstly you need to check that you can get IPN ( Iso Propyl Nitrate ) where you are - it is not feasable to ship this stuff from abroad and I suspect that even overland in the USA may cause problems. Originally Amyl Nitrate was used and is a little better but as far as I know this is no longer available and enquiries regarding it might cause attention from the authorities as it was also used in the production of high explosives and illegal drugs (as well as legal ones, mostly heart stimulants) - it is a quite dangerous substance in its pure form )

As a converted motor of this type is not likely to be used for racing I suspect a "mild brew" would be best suited and make for easy starting and long engine life.

The basic brew is one third each of Parafin ("lamp oil" I belive in the USA ?) DiEthyl ether (available in the UK from big chemists and scientific suppliers if you can convince them as to it's intended use - again a highly dangerous substance more below.) and Castor oil. To this is then added 2% by volume of IPN (or Amyl Nitrate)

This will run the motor fine as above but a little experimenting may be in order...

More Parafin (Lamp Oil) = more power
Less Ether = harder starting
Less Oil = more wear

Plus and minus only 1% IPN will alter the compression setting needed for smooth running and make the engine run hotter / cooler.

Be very careful with Ether as it's fumes are heavier than air and are produced proffusly from an open container.
They sink to the floor and stay there in a room, any spark will ignite them and can cause a real explosion as you get with a gas leak.

I believe in the states some folks get there Ether from truck spares depots as it is used as an assistent to starting real Diesel engines when necessary. I do not know if this stuff is as good as the "proper" grade Ether - comments anyone ?

btw the Parafin (Lamp Oil) is the bit that burns to provide the power and this is got from it's higfh calorific value.
It is an interesting subject indeed and I have greatly enjoyed playing with various wierd brews !!
I have done many experiments with similar substances with varying results, such as central heating oil, lorry Diesel fuel, and even Napthalene (mothballs to most folks !)

Nitro Benzine, Ethyl Alchohol, and even Gasoline all have effects that can be seen for better or worse depending on the use the set-up is put to.

As to the oil, much experience has lead my to stick to Castor oil as supplied by racing motorcycle shops ("Castrol" brand here in the UK) tho I believe medicinal Castor is as good tho dearer to buy.

btw - do not try to use racing motorcycle castor oil with glow engines, it does not mix with the Alchohol content at all.



Motorboy -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (11/30/2004 4:00:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ghost123uk



Firstly you need to check that you can get IPN ( Iso Propyl Nitrate ) where you are - it is not feasable to ship this stuff from abroad and I suspect that even overland in the USA may cause problems. Originally Amyl Nitrate was used and is a little better but as far as I know this is no longer available and enquiries regarding it might cause attention from the authorities as it was also used in the production of high explosives and illegal drugs (as well as legal ones, mostly heart stimulants) - it is a quite dangerous substance in its pure form )



Easy to buy glassfiber hardener, it has Methylenehyleneketone peroxide (MEKP or MEK Peroxide) and works well as ignition improver (to reduce ignition lagg)..[;)]

All chemical liquids with last word Nitirite, Nitrate, Peroxide can you use as ignition improver.

Jens Eirik



knarF -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (11/30/2004 7:33:17 PM)

"Little" to comment to above posts.

As a newcomer in dieselland, Ive been through the process of getting it all together just lately.
I use MEKP (sometimes called MKEP), because its is indeed, very easy to get, and not too expensive (200cc was 9 euro).
Usually sold under a brandname, mine's called "butanox 50" (productname manufacturer)
If a shop sells paint and or epoxy's they usually have it, or can order it for you.

Most "car accesoires shops" will carry diesel ignition improver,(DII) though those are usually not 100%
nitrate or peroxide. I mixed an ounce of diesel with DII instead of MEKP, an this seems to work well too.
200CC costs app. 5 euro.

Lamp-oil is cheap. 2 euro per liter

Ether is usually harder to get but not thát hard. Stores that sell smaller bottles (for houshold use) can
usually order lager quantitys, you just have to ask. I had the luck that the shopowner flew CL-diesels in
his younger years :) I paid 6,- euro per liter.

I guess its all about where and what to look for. Eventually, all ingredients were available no longer than a 10 minute
walk from my house (and I live in a 35000 people town) If people ask questions about what you on earth you are going to do
with a gallon of ether or 200cc amyl nitrate, just tell them what its for. Eventually I was even able to get amyl nitrate !
(but that was after i told him where I needed it for, and only if I took my can of fuel to the shop, so the shopowner
could put it in himself. He told me that even one sniff of it will take you on a loooong flight %-)

Still, as you live in the US of A, why not order ready made diesel ?



RhyanO -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/1/2004 12:38:35 PM)

Thanks for the replys on mixing up some diesel fuel.

Very informative and helpful.

Thanks much,
Ryan



gcb -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/1/2004 1:53:25 PM)

JB,

Parafin is called kerosene in the USA. Lamp oil is a substitute used by some people because it is scented. This, to some, makes the smell less offensive.

...without the stink, it ain't diesel, IMHO! :)

George



Motorboy -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/1/2004 7:57:30 PM)

Some time i am using kerosene or autodiesel. With autodiesel are the engine better lubricated.

Jens Eirik



John C -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/1/2004 9:26:41 PM)

In the USA, lamp oil is similar to kerosene or # 1 Diesel, latter sold in the winter to reduce fuel jelling in cold temperatures. Diesel # 2 is the normal automotive stuff.

With respect to lubrication, the # 2 has better lubrication properties then the # 1 / kerosene and in auto diesels the latter is not recommended due to fuel system wear issues. In the model Diesel, with 20 - 33% castor oil, I don't think there would be any significant difference to the model engine.

I assume the Castrol mentioned from the UK is the 'R' stuff, sure smelled good in 2 cycle motorcycle engines years ago [:D]

John C

Frog and AM 2.5 cc Diesels



Motorboy -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/2/2004 5:21:08 AM)

John..

In east Europa to example Russia, Ukraine.. they adding 10-15 % gasoline/petrol in autodiesel to improve starting in winter.

In Norway we used kerosene with 2 stroke oil added before we got winter autodiesel in modern days.

Jens Eirik



ghost123uk -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/2/2004 9:27:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Motorboy

John..

In east Europa to example Russia, Ukraine.. they adding 10-15 % gasoline/petrol in autodiesel to improve starting in winter.

In Norway we used kerosene with 2 stroke oil added before we got winter autodiesel in modern days.

Jens Eirik


Intetresting stuf Jens,
I must try that on my friends Ford 4 cylinder Diesel boat engine.

I too have used auto Diesel and find I can reduce the amount of Castor oil as it has better lube quality than Kerosene.
It also has a highe calorific value, so may give more power per cc of fuel, ( better for team race ? [;)] )

Some gasoline in model Diesel fuel (and in Glow fuel) makes the motor run hotter, maybe an advantage in some applications, tho right now I can't think of one !

Re "Castrol" Castor oil - yep smells nice in full size gasoline 2 strokes - The R30 or R40 (grade) is ok for Gasoline and Diesel but for Glow fuel, one must use the M30 or M40 type so it will mix with the alchohol.



John C -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/3/2004 12:24:02 AM)

Jens Erik,

Addition of gasoline (petro) to Diesel fuel is to prevent jelling in cold weather. Gasoline has a very poor cetane (auto ignition) rating, just the opposite of automotive diesel fuel, so gasoline does not help Diesel combustion. My 1981 Diesel VW Rabbit allowed up to 10% gasoline in Diesel fuel to reduce jelling.

In the US, there is now a 'winterized' Diesel fuel to reduce the jelling (cloud) point temperature.

Present vehicles include a 2001 VW Jetta TDI and 2003 Cummins ISB powered Dodge Ram 2500 (I worked for Cummins 37 years before retirement).

John C



Motorboy -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/3/2004 5:16:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John C

Jens Erik,

Addition of gasoline (petro) to Diesel fuel is to prevent jelling in cold weather. Gasoline has a very poor cetane (auto ignition) rating, just the opposite of automotive diesel fuel, so gasoline does not help Diesel combustion. My 1981 Diesel VW Rabbit allowed up to 10% gasoline in Diesel fuel to reduce jelling.

John C


I know, i am car mechanic..[8|]

"prevent jelling in cold weather", in Norway we are talking about the dieselfuel are "waxed" if cold winter are coming, it will not allow to filtrating in dieselfilter when fuel are jelled...

Jens Eirik



AndyW -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/3/2004 11:19:43 AM)

I've been running Norvels converted to diesel and they perform very well. At first, I had trouble with the 1/3rd formula. That is, 1/3rd ether, kerosene and oil with 2% amyl nitrate.

Eventually, I stumbled on the fact that MEKP works great. Also, 33.33% oil in modern engines is NOT required. As well, John Deere quick start is 80% ether and works perfectly. Oil is Sig AA castor or Klotz Benol.

Formula:

Ether 30%
kero 50%
oil 20%
MEKP 2%

Yes, this adds up to 102% but hey that just means you get that much more fuel. :0)
Kidding aside, the numbers used are to make it simpler to understand.

I've run this formula on engines from .049, .061, .074, .15 Norvels and an Enya11CX converted. All start easily with a starter, run strong and throttle well. All the Norvels have been flown extensively, winter and summer, no bent rods or busted cranks. The key is to make sure your compression setting is right on the money, your needle is set and you apply just THREE drops of prime into the INTAKE and NEVER the exhaust. Hit it with your starter and she should fire off. If not, your line to the carb was not full but the first prime run ought to have done the trick and the next prime should get you running. I've even been so brave as to choke the throttle while applying the starter. Works if careful, no busted parts yet.

BTW,
No jelling in winter with hardware store kerosene. Mind you, this is at just above or just below freezing.



Motorboy -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/3/2004 4:55:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1705493-Andy

BTW,
No jelling in winter with hardware store kerosene. Mind you, this is at just above or just below freezing.


Autodiesel mixed with ether can not jelling.[;)]

Jens Eirik



knarF -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/3/2004 9:14:54 PM)

About the content of oil. I heard one of the car-high-nitro-engines experts say that IN THEORY you can get away
with only a few percent oil in your fuel. That couple % is necessary for lubing. All the extra oil is used for cooling
the engine.

Dunno if its true, but it does make some sense.



Rupurt -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/3/2004 9:19:33 PM)

But if you need it cool then you cant really get away with removing it.



wolfcorey -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/8/2004 12:27:08 AM)

Question can a person use strait Number 1 or 2 Diesel fuels in Diesel A/C engines or the Davis conversions. Or is there a couple of ingredients that u could add to make it run well. I know that either is used for easier starting. But also heard that number 2 actually has its own lubication properties so no oil additive is needed or very little. But could jell. And that number 1 diesel doesn't lube well, but won't jell. Could a person mix the two like 40/60 and add some either after and get a good runnin mix. Without having to use kerosine MEKP caster oil mixing techniques.



John C -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/8/2004 1:37:16 AM)

Wolfcary,

You need to use substantial amounts of castor or other oil independent of whether you use # 1 or # 2 Diesel fuel as both are very thin in themselves, and while thye have some lubricating properties, they are no substitute for a lubricating oil.

Diesel fuel is an oil, unlike gasoline (petrol), which is why it dosen't evaporate as quickly as gasoline, although the light fractions will evaporate eventually.

For all pratical purposes, you must use either, lubricating oil, and Diesel fuel/lamp oil in the right proportions for your engine to run well [;)]. See Andy's post as a point of departure.

John C



ghost123uk -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/8/2004 9:17:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfcorey

Question can a person use strait Number 1 or 2 Diesel fuels in Diesel A/C engines or the Davis conversions. Or is there a couple of ingredients that u could add to make it run well. I know that either is used for easier starting. But also heard that number 2 actually has its own lubication properties so no oil additive is needed or very little. But could jell. And that number 1 diesel doesn't lube well, but won't jell. Could a person mix the two like 40/60 and add some either after and get a good runnin mix. Without having to use kerosine MEKP caster oil mixing techniques.


My Reply = a quote from the second post on this topic as =

"The basic brew is one third each of Parafin, DiEthyl ether and Oil.

This will run the motor fine as above but a little experimenting may be in order...

More Parafin (Lamp Oil) = more power
Less Ether = harder starting
Less Oil = more wear "

IMO a basic general purpose brew "tweaked" from the above would be

38% Kerosene
30% Ether
30% Castor oil
2% IPN (or MEKP tho I've never tried this stuff - yet !)

Remember the ether is not just for starting, but is an esential component to obtain good running.
Our motors work very differently to an automotive Diesel engine and should, more accuratly be called "2 stroke compression ignition engines" hence the very different fuel.

btw one dissadvantage of using auto Diesel, is more mess on the model from the exhaust.

In conclusion for the type of motors we are talking about here we must have a minimum of
~25% Castor oil (pref 28% IMO)
~25% Ether

( "Full on" racing motors as used for FAI team etc race may be a different ball game )



wolfcorey -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/8/2004 9:33:44 PM)

Is there a subsitute for caster oil or does anyone have a place that I could purchase for a reasonable price. So far I found a site but they want $52/gal. And Could I use Jet A instead of kerosene its mostly pure kerosene with a few additives.



John C -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/8/2004 10:13:12 PM)

I can't help you on the castor oil, but the quoted price seems mighty high [:(]. Have you tried a hobby shop, they should be able to get it for you. The price quoted seems more lik medicinal grade, i.e. for human consumption [:@].

Jet A will work as you thought it might [;)]

John C



Motorboy -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/8/2004 10:45:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfcorey

Is there a subsitute for caster oil...


I has used motor oil SAE 10W40 and SAE 20W50 in own mixed dieselfuel and works well. Not lower than 25 % motor oil in fuel or mix 50% castor oil and 50% motoroil before mixing with kerosene/ether/IPN.

"As lubricant (ansich?[:o]) pure castor-oil is very suitable. Unfortunately it has the disadvantage that it gumming extremely. Everyone knows the problem with stored engines, which were not washed perfectly before. New synthetic model engine oils are very well suitable, because they contain additives, which bind the aggressive burn acids and which resins of the engines prevent. Also suitably twostroke oil are not-mixing based on mineral oil. Engine oil SAE 30 as HD oil is suitable, it is meant a rotating oil and not for the burn. Mixing of Castor oil and synthetic lubricants is heedlessly possible."

Copy translated from homepage at german: http://www.kleinstdiesel.de/

Jens Eirik



ghost123uk -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/9/2004 9:15:31 AM)

That does seem a very high price for Castor oil !

Have you looked in the shops that sell products for racing motorcycles or cars ?

The general opinion is that if your motor has a twin ballraced crankshaft, then some modern synthetic 2 stroke oils are usable, but if you crank has only one ball race, or non at all, then Castor is the best to not wear out your motor.



oldtimer2 -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/13/2004 5:17:39 AM)

Hello Wolf, You can talk to your local bakery supply store to see if they carry or can obtain Bakers AA caster oil. It should not be too expensive. George



ProBroJoe -> RE: Home-brew Diesel Fuel (12/14/2004 1:13:40 PM)

Hey all,

I saw the following at Wal-Mart last night (in the automotive section, $4.74 for a quart) and wonder if it will work in place of amyl nitrate or MEKP? They claim it raises the cetane number by up to 6 points so it seems similar to "diesel ignition improver". (I'm not mixing my own fuel yet, but thought I'd throw this bit of info out there.)

Picture taken from www.powerservice.com.

-Joe



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