abel_pranger

Red-

Alas, I am not in his District. No matter, I'm sure he meant what he said, "I will retain any and all tax deductions ...." and I had no reason to question. I hope he gets a landslide response to his magnanimous offer.

Abel

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Dr. H. Sanford Frank's wonderful communications folks (one of the one's he nominated to be DVP) rejected a comment suggesting his idea was a good one that could only be improved on by moving MA from a cost center to a profit center. He thought it was a snide cheap shot!

Abel I disagree with your win-win comment. It looks good and it will make a few feel good and help one in his efforts to quench Uncle's voracious appetite for his money, but that is as far as it goes. I don't think it is a win-win based on the cost versus profit center issue.

Ben Lanterman

It isn't about the magazine or it's content.

It's about who is calling the shots and who wants to call the shots.

If you don't win you try to bug the ones who did.

The cost is trivial for all of us even those of us who are retired. The magazine issue is just a way to try to get your way.

I have seen better losers in my first grade class in my volunteer teacher position.

J_R

Hi Ben

In this case, the IRS is pretty much calling the shots.

There are several "tests" to determine if an organization is eligible for 501 (c) 3 tax status. One is the publication of a magazine, another publication of a newsletter. Neither is a litimus test. If, for example, the organization holds classes on campus, or has an accredited museum, those are other "tests". The AMA happens to have neither of those, although there are a number of tests not mentioned here. The IRS site is full of information on the requirements if you are really interested.

Ben Lanterman

Hi JR,

That isn't really what I am commenting about - certainly the legal stuff must be taken care of regardless. I do enjoy my visits to the AMA museum though so I tend to call it a valid museum. A lot of the stuff is older than me.

It's the seemingly eternal bickering over the cost of the magazine and the incredible lengths guys are going to to try to eliminate it. If half the effort and talent were redirected it would be pretty useful to the hobby in general - or maybe not - we will probably never know. A lot of folks just seem unable to do anything but be against what ever is the current status.

Of course I probably don't have a clue as to the real motives and secret agendas of the folks involved. But it sure seems like a case of sour grapes.

rw Guinn

Sure you do, Ben. But like most of us, we don't like to call other people "Shallow" or "Selfish"--but that is what it boils down to.
There are a number of people of the convenience generation who believe the world is or should be arranged for their convenience. If they are not interested in something, they should not have to be exposed to it, and should certainly not have to pay for any of it! And for that matter, how could anybody be interested in something as trivial and insignificant as that? It should be separate, and itemized, so they can avoid it.
For example, who ever heard of an RC airplane driver (I won't use the word pilot for many of these folk) learning anything from a free-flight specialist? What could a Control Line fan possible know that an RC Driver needs to know?
These are the people who get Pi%%ed when someone on the "Snoop Dogg" website mentions "Puff Daddy" or whatever the equivalent is among children.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

yer actually right RW.

in the strictest sense of the word, we, none of us, are not pilots, we are operators.
pilots have body parts in whatevver they are piloting.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Ben,
This has been discussed around here for some time now and we know that MA is a cost center. We know that it costs $1 to sell $1 worth of advertising, so some of us think that it would not take a major change to impact that to the direct benefit of the general membership.

I don't think MA is a bad magazine, although there are better ones out there for less. I don't think MA is used properly as a communications venue. I do think MA should be self supporting rather than a drain on our dues.

A dollar here and a dollar there and pretty soon you are talking about $58 a year with no good tangible thing the member can point to as coming from that expense. Want to bet when the next dues increase will be? The tea leaves I am reading say there is going to be one for the 2006 dues year. What do yours say?

crownvic

Are you telling me that employes of ama the people that work for us we cant know how much we pay them?If so something is rotten in muncie!

lonnie

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Does blood and small patches of skin count as body parts? If so then there are a lot more pilots in R/C that thought.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Shhh!

Statements like that one just lead to more silly rules.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Like making it mandatory to wear rubber gloves when using CA so you won't leave small patches of skin glued IN the plane. Likewise, shields over #11 blades so that it is not possible to donate tiny drops of blood to the construction?

Ben Lanterman

"A dollar here and a dollar there and pretty soon you are talking about $58 a year with no good tangible thing the member can point to as coming from that expense."

Jim, I should confess up front that I had an article on this years Joe Nall Flyin published in the magazine and am supposed to have one on the Scale Masters. So I am surely biased. No doubt.

But today while going to the doctor I took this month's MA and carefully looked through it. I thought it was packed with information that covered all aspects of the hobby and in addition I could see what was going on in all of the districts - depending on how good of a job the VPs are reporting. There was a construction article, review, articles on electrics, scale, indoor stuff, etc. I personally like that. I take a half dozen other RC specific magazines and 2 or 3 that are more general.

MA gives as much good reading and photography (especially when I do the article) as anything else (well there are a lot of good photos in the other mags also).

In today's economy the cost of the magazineto me or anyone is trivial. A dollar a week doesn't seem too much when I just shelled out $70 for a small light Lipoly pack or maybe a Coke out of a machine.

I think that the whole discussion is a matter of who is and who wants to call the shots - the magazine is just something to crab about as a lever on the way to determining who is top dawg.

I would have a lot more respect (I honestly think I would like all the the guys involved in all of the discussions, they fly models after all) concerning the guys in the discussions if, perhaps, even though they don't agree with anything or each other, they would work within the framework of the existing system to make the magazine better.

Ben

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Ben,
I am not sure you are wrong in your next to last paragraph, but I challenge you and anyone else involved with MA to improve it as a communications vehicle for the AMA - WHICH IS WHAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE!

However I merely suggested one very important area where a significant improvement should be easy, if someone was not apparently interested in feathering their own nest. That area is in the advertisement costs versus what we are selling the space for.

To respond to your comments, I fully know and understand that improvement of MA is NOT the problem of folks writing articles, but I also know that unless we all get on the same page it will never happen. Look at DVP reports that say nothing about anything going on at EC meetings. I won't address the abject stupidity of the one that won't respond to any input from Leader Members he doesn't like and tells the membership nothing except to write or call him for political discussions.

The only place where the membership has hint of what is happening is in the presidents column AFTER the action has already been decided. THAT sir, will lead to the destruction of our organization from within and THAT is what I am attempting to address because it is clear that there are some on the EC unwilling to change that situation. I feel another dues increase coming to get more $ to throw down someone's favorite black hole, what do you think?

I hear Reese airport is for sale, which is much more than I heard about the IMS show we suddenly bought just after a dues increase and without any discussion with any of the membership. Bet it is going to take another dues increase to make that happen, or is it the hotel this time?

Ben Lanterman

Good Morning Jim, Talking with you is OK, you tend to make sense.

"That area is in the advertisement costs versus what we are selling the space for. "

I honestly am totally ignorant about that, my fault, I promised when I retired I wouldn't ever think about hard stuff again.

" Look at DVP reports that say nothing about anything going on at EC meetings. I won't address the abject stupidity of the one that won't respond to any input from Leader Members he doesn't like and tells the membership nothing except to write or call him for political discussions. "

I have to agree with you on that point. I read all of the DVP columns (I tend to read every magazine from front to back, all the pages, I always learn something)and have to admit that you are totally right on this point!

"The only place where the membership has hint of what is happening is in the presidents column AFTER the action has already been decided. THAT sir, will lead to the destruction of our organization from within and THAT is what I am attempting to address because it is clear that there are some on the EC unwilling to change that situation. I feel another dues increase coming to get more $ to throw down someone's favorite black hole, what do you think? "

Do you think it is so bad that it cause the destruction of the AMA. I have to admit that I look at it as an easy insurance provider but I also agree that the big items should be presented to the membership before the decision. For instance the Muncie site. I think it is great - but it is just a few hours away - it would be even better if it were here in St. Charles - and I can surely understand why someone in CA or NY wouldn't care for it. But if we waited until the membership agreed on any given spot it would be done on the same selfish reasons of I want it in my back yard. Granted it was done that way the first time I would guess. I don't know. I do know I like the present site better than the headquarters we had in Washington.

I tend to think in terms of many years about things. Regardless of what the present admin does or doesn't do they do have a limited time span, nature has seen to that. The AMA is like a straight line with peaks and valleys here and there, depending on which side of the issue you are on, but the straight line keeps on going.

"I hear Reese airport is for sale, which is much more than I heard about the IMS show we suddenly bought just after a dues increase and without any discussion with any of the membership. Bet it is going to take another dues increase to make that happen, or is it the hotel this time? "

Has the IMS show done anything to get the AMA out to the public and get more members as a result? I don't know.

I guess I let the admin in power, who ever it might be, give it their all and let history make the judgement. At times we are too close to preceived problems to see the possible good result. Of course at times we are too close to preceived problems that indeed turn to yuuch and we get covered with it.

Want a good question? Why did I retire in Missouri (cold and windy today) when I could have gone to Florida and be flying? Right now it seems a pretty bad decision but at least I didn't get blown away by a big wind.

Ben

Again I don't particularly care about the dues, it saves me from having to go out and hustle insurance myself - for good or bad, I imagine that most flyers feel the same way.

I understand fully what you are talking about, but to give the devil his dues, don't you think that the decisions by the present admin are made with what they think is the best interest of the future of the AMA in mind. After all not too many guys get up and say, "Hummmmm, what can I do to crash this organization today?" I have to believe that the built in male urge to always be right lives in them also. They don't want to go down in history as the group that made it all go away.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Ben,
Interspersed

[quote]ORIGINAL: Ben Lanterman

Good Morning Jim, Talking with you is OK, you tend to make sense.

Thank you sir.

"That area is in the advertisement costs versus what we are selling the space for. "

I honestly am totally ignorant about that, my fault, I promised when I retired I wouldn't ever think about hard stuff again.

" Look at DVP reports that say nothing about anything going on at EC meetings. I won't address the abject stupidity of the one that won't respond to any input from Leader Members he doesn't like and tells the membership nothing except to write or call him for political discussions. "

I have to agree with you on that point. I read all of the DVP columns (I tend to read every magazine from front to back, all the pages, I always learn something)and have to admit that you are totally right on this point!

The really funny thing is the DVIII DVP ran on a platform of improving communications. If anyone can explain how his columns measure up to that and make sense, they clearly must have some problems that need professional attention.

"The only place where the membership has hint of what is happening is in the presidents column AFTER the action has already been decided. THAT sir, will lead to the destruction of our organization from within and THAT is what I am attempting to address because it is clear that there are some on the EC unwilling to change that situation. I feel another dues increase coming to get more $ to throw down someone's favorite black hole, what do you think? "

Do you think it is so bad that it cause the destruction of the AMA. I have to admit that I look at it as an easy insurance provider but I also agree that the big items should be presented to the membership before the decision. For instance the Muncie site. I think it is great - but it is just a few hours away - it would be even better if it were here in St. Charles - and I can surely understand why someone in CA or NY wouldn't care for it. But if we waited until the membership agreed on any given spot it would be done on the same selfish reasons of I want it in my back yard. Granted it was done that way the first time I would guess. I don't know. I do know I like the present site better than the headquarters we had in Washington.

I tend to think in terms of many years about things. Regardless of what the present admin does or doesn't do they do have a limited time span, nature has seen to that. The AMA is like a straight line with peaks and valleys here and there, depending on which side of the issue you are on, but the straight line keeps on going.

I don’t think anyone wakes up thinki8ng “What can I do to crash the organization today�, but it appears that many of the management decisions are made with little view outside the narrow preconceived ideas of a few. The lack of communications with the general membership evident in MA is a major part of the problem, and THAT is something that will destroy the organization unless some can sell more insurance. The problem with that solution is that I never believed that the AMA was just another insurance company. If that is all the AMA is to be, then we have no need for Muncie or any further development of that site.

"I hear Reese airport is for sale, which is much more than I heard about the IMS show we suddenly bought just after a dues increase and without any discussion with any of the membership. Bet it is going to take another dues increase to make that happen, or is it the hotel this time? "

Has the IMS show done anything to get the AMA out to the public and get more members as a result? I don't know.

You asked a fair question that I don’t have an exact answer to, but let me ask you another. Is the IMS show more effective in generating new memberships than the local clubs being involved with their own communities? How much has the AMA spent developing programs to lead clubs to that activity? Cost benefit ratios have a purpose and the average member internalizes them and rarely squawks when they are unbalanced, which they do about Muncie and other nifty and neat things the AMA has found to spend money on that do not directly impact the hobby.

Being told of expensive decisions after they have already been made is what will lead to the destruction of the organization rather than errors in the decision making process. We need to repair the communications process within our own organization or be force to admit that the AMA is just an insurance company that practices unfair (and possibly illegal?) marketing practices.

Hossfly

No argument, Mr. Ben, while comparing the oranges however Model Aviation (MA) is a lemon among the real oranges. Why is MA needed as a competitor withinin the commercial model media? Since you take a number of those modeling media publications, while reading the other United States based magazines do you find any that now gives any credence to those activities, such as the NATs, organized and provided by the AMA?
The media ignores the AMA simply due to the AMA's production of a commercial magazine format competing for those advertising $$ at a much reduced rate than can be afforded by those real commercial magazines that must profit to stay in business. This is especially true where MA has a force of conscripted clientele.
Therefore the question is not really the cost or the content of MA, but the inherent damage done to the overall sport/hobby/recreation by the forced entry of a market competitor that has a considerable advantage and will not compete on equal terms, but use their advantages against those that were at one times supporters of the same goals as MA is SUPPOSED to be.

That existing system includes voting out those that go along with the apparent majority sitting around the *square* table. That frame work also includes getting all the support one can muster for one's idea/s on what needs to be done, plus obtaining ideas from others about what they see that may well be needed. IMO, the next available EC object definitely needing a voter's extended vacation is the current AMA Executive Vice President.

I have been obtaining a significant amount of information concerning my estimate of some $80,000.oo just expended by the MA Staff without any record of permission. I will not post this info. here until sometime after the New Year.

Along with that, I hear that the newly hired Executive Director may well not change much more than just adding another top pay position at AMA. Again the existing system definitely needs some changes be it AMA and/or MA.

Jim Thomerson

As I see it, the only competitor MA has among the USA commercial magazines is Flying Models, and, yes, they do cover such things as the Nats. I don't, at present do RC, so I am not really interested in the RC-only magazines.

Jim

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Hey Horrible,

That is a heck of a lot of money. I am familiar with the business practices of several of the Fortune 500 and have seen that several limit division managers to 50K before having the decision reviewed at the executive management level, so this is really big. It is well after the 1st of the year, where are these neat facts you speak of? I really want to know all there is to discuss about that expenditure and YOU PROMISED!

Hossfly

Read the item again. I said "...my estimate... and that may not be a fact. In addition I said "...some time..." which is strictly my definition and it may well be *some time*. Like the song says "Som' beach, somewhere..." Well Som' Beach, it just may be Som' Time.

Ask Holland to explain it. He won't answer my emails, except one he did just say to ask Kurek. Maybe he or Holland will speak to you, since D. Holland is the AMA man of finance. Tell him you really want to know, not me.

No one will admit that there was an extra magazine sent out last year. I have 12 monthly issues, one for each month of 2004 and a Special issue, plus a Jan. 2005 issue that came in Dec. 2004. I have a magazine for each month since the inception of the real magazine format back in the '70s PLUS ONE. More to come Som' Time.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Drat! You gave me the typical mind bending left wing answer, mealy meaningless mush. So much for your ability to provide factual information. Are you also going to accuse folks of violating their fiduciary responsibilities with no facts to support your assertions and claims when the right answer is you really don't know? Dude, that approach is more useless than nipples on a boar hog because it shouts "falsehood" to all listeners.

Have it your way.

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

For the record, I never stated that I didn't want "A" magazine from the AMA, I'd simply like to see a better one. I'm the one who started the poll about the mag. in the first place, and I voted to have the option of a mini mag. I, as someone else has mentioned, think that there are much better R/C airplane magazines out on the market.

Simply give us an option/options. I don't care about a dues reduction, I just want to see a better magazine. I'll stick with the magazine right now because there are a "few" things to look at and read that interest me, but the majority of it I couldn't care less about. A very large portion of it is simply ads.

J_R

J_R

How about it Horrace, are you ready to post? It's after the first of the year... by a bunch.

Like I said and asked before, I will stand behind what I post. Will you stand behind what you post?

If I make a mistake, I correct it. Do you?

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_27...3/key_/tm.htm#

Ben Lanterman

Yard Dart you mention that there are much better R/C magazines on the market. I don't believe that MA was ever supposed to be a RC magazine, rather it would seem it should be something that has something for all aspects of the hobby. I personally have been in the hobby for over 53 years now (started young) and I learn something everytime I read a freeflight or control line speed article. I am addicted to RC, yes, but not blind to the other aspects of the hobby. AMA has a rule book that covers a heck of a lot of contest types, I believe that MA is supposed to cover all of them in some fashion or another. That pretty well eliminates an all RC magazine.

Hoss you said, "Therefore the question is not really the cost or the content of MA, but the inherent damage done to the overall sport/hobby/recreation by the forced entry of a market competitor that has a considerable advantage and will not compete on equal terms, but use their advantages against those that were at one times supporters of the same goals as MA is SUPPOSED to be. "

I would be interested in knowing what "inheret damage" MA has done. I honestly can't see by looking at the hobby shop (Mark Twain Hobby in St. Charles, MO is a great place - They had to expand at least 50% last year and still are crowded) or at the flying field that damage is being done. There are several new magazines on the stand and that I have started to take that cover Backyard Flying, 3-D Flying, etc.

Where should I be looking to see the "inheret damage"?

I hadn't thought about this for a long time (time is relative I guess) and I had sworn that I would never visit this forum again but there was a email note that it had been added to. And it just popped in my head as I was reading JR's comments (along with the head cold I now have so no doubt my thought processes are messed up by the cold medicine) -- it must really get to Horrace badly that he isn't a part of the decision making process in Muncie and that they aren't asking his opinions on various matters. It just wouldn't matter who was doing what to whom at headquarters, he wouldn't like it unless he was actively involved in the doing. It could be the exact same thing but if he were doing it - well then it is probably OK. Maybe I am wrong on this, I am on the cold medicine.

All organizations need active thinking members who hold the leaders feet to the fire and believe the leaders should be responsible - that is as it should be. But Horrace, when you do it so much, all the time and apparently never like anything that is being done, it tends to activate the mental "filters" that we all have and you get tuned out. That you have given a lot of thought to what you say is evident, that you care about the organization is evident and that you want a change is really evident, but you should consider if there isn't a "smoother" more effective approach to getting your ideas across.

I keep remembering the old saying, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." There was another about a boy who cried wolf too much and they ignored him when ..........


The above comments are the opinion of Ben Lanterman and in no way represent the opinions of the AMA, Dave Brown, Model Aviation, the EC, my distric VP or the Boeing RC Club or it's members.