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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 2:33 AM   
Flug



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From: MD
Status: offline 		AT A GLANCE

Has anyone looked at the last audit of the AMA? They claim that Model Aviation expense to them is 1,846,359.00. However, subscription revenue is 92,556.00. Their advertising revenue is 722,870. Hmmm. Are we paying for them to advertise to us? Through the magazine??

Whatever the case, the magazine costs 23.6% of their expenses. Why would they be willing to devote 23.6% to a magazine, yet have us pay only 1.2%? Something ain't right.

They need the magazine because it fits nicely in their scheme. They don't mention the revenue coming out of it because of their advertisements!

They finance using 1/3 of their yearly budget this year.

In 2000 this financing was 127,266
In 2001 it increased to 3,570,067.00

They use most of our money for their own investments:
Marketable equity securities
Corporate bonds
US treasury notes
Government Obligation Fund

Land and improvements for this year account for 3,183,404.00
Building and improvements - 2,829,170.00
Headquarters - 3,313,487.00

Total for 2001 is 11,311,818.00 for property and equipment assets.

The AMA line of credit runs at 29% up to 1,000,000.00

At the end of 2001 they had $500 Cash on hand.

FAI programs cost 107,285

Insurance for membership in 2001 costs 539,790.00. 170,000 members at 58.00 each would cost 9,860,000.00 (I guess there's a bunch who don't pay the 58 bucks. )Yeah, I know. That was 2001. But come on. Their bill for insurance was 539,790. Thats really around 18.26 average per member. At 48.00 in 2001, our membership dues would have been:

100,00 x 48.00 =4,800,000
50,000 x 48.00 = 2,400,000

If you want to really be conservative and pretend that 3/4 of our membership is over 65 then we would have 6,120,000.00 for them and another 2,465,000 for regulars.


The AMA makes more money on "other" revenue than they pay for our insurance. In other words...they could pay our insurance with a flick of a booger..compared to the money they are getting from us!!

You can cut it any way you like. We are paying 14.82Xwhat they need to pay our insurance...A better way to put it would be to say that they used 85 percent for themselves 539,790 out of a total 8,003,657.00 expenses in 2001 ACCOUNTED FOR MEMBER INSURANCE.


Go to the members area and click on the budget/audit link on the bottom left.

< Message edited by Flug -- Feb 24 2003 8:16PM >

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 4:48 AM   
J_R


 

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From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flug
AT A GLANCE

Has anyone looked at the last audit of the AMA? They claim that Model Aviation expense to them is 1,846,359.00. However, subscription revenue is 92,556.00. Their advertising revenue is 722,870. Hmmm. Are we paying for them to advertise to us? Through the magazine??

Whatever the case, the magazine costs 23.6% of their expenses. Why would they be willing to devote 23.6% to a magazine, yet have us pay only 1.2%? Something ain't right.

They need the magazine because it fits nicely in their scheme. They don't mention the revenue coming out of it because of their advertisements!

They finance using 1/3 of their yearly budget this year.

In 2000 this financing was 127,266
In 2001 it increased to 3,570,067.00

They use most of our money for their own investments:
Marketable equity securities
Corporate bonds
US treasury notes
Government Obligation Fund

Land and improvements for this year account for 3,183,404.00
Building and improvements - 2,829,170.00
Headquarters - 3,313,487.00

Total for 2001 is 11,311,818.00 for property and equipment assets.

The AMA line of credit runs at 29% up to 1,000,000.00

At the end of 2001 they had $500 Cash on hand.

FAI programs cost 107,285

Insurance for membership in 2001 costs 539,790.00. 170,000 members at 58.00 each would cost 9,860,000.00 (I guess there's a bunch who don't pay the 58 bucks. )Yeah, I know. That was 2001. But come on. Their bill for insurance was 539,790. Thats really around 18.26 average per member. At 48.00 in 2001, our membership dues would have been:

100,00 x 48.00 =4,800,000
50,000 x 48.00 = 2,400,000

If you want to really be conservative and pretend that 3/4 of our membership is over 65 then we would have 6,120,000.00 for them and another 2,465,000 for regulars.


The AMA makes more money on "other" revenue than they pay for our insurance. In other words...they could pay our insurance with a flick of a booger..compared to the money they are getting from us!!

You can cut it any way you like. We are paying 14.82Xwhat they need to pay our insurance...A better way to put it would be to say that they used 85 percent for themselves 539,790 out of a total 8,003,657.00 expenses in 2001 ACCOUNTED FOR MEMBER INSURANCE.


Go to the members area and click on the budget/audit link on the bottom left. [/QUOTE]

A couple of questions. How did you get into the Members Only Section? You keep saying "they" and "us". If you are not a member how can you get in?

If you want the assessment of a professional, a member who is not part of the AMA leadership, look up the analysis the Owner of RCU had done in the thread entitled "Any tax attorneys in the house? Contact RCadmin RE: 2001 Financials"

Of course, if you are not into reading and want to keep spewing nonsense, help yourself. Your certainly capable of "pretending" to be knowledgeable.

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 5:39 AM   
Flug



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Status: offline 		Wow, that was just really ****in I like to spew nonsense occasionally. Just look at the numbers. Bottom line..85% of our money doesn't pay for insurance. How's that?

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 5:48 AM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flug
Wow, that was just really ****in I like to spew nonsense occasionally. Just look at the numbers. Bottom line..85% of our money doesn't pay for insurance. How's that? [/QUOTE]

Close. Since it has been discussed here innumerable times, it not any big news. So has the Financial statement, ad nauseum.

Do you have anything new to add?

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 6:12 AM   
Flug



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From: MD
Status: offline 		Yes, I actually have a few questions. The first has to do with what is mandatory. I'm gonna act stupid on this...

Why is it that everyone thinks that you have to have AMA insurance to fly? Is it just a general acceptance of clubs across the US? Is it because nobody wants to look around?

If I'm insured, who cares where I get it?

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 6:58 AM   
J_R


 

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From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flug
Yes, I actually have a few questions. The first has to do with what is mandatory. I'm gonna act stupid on this...

Why is it that everyone thinks that you have to have AMA insurance to fly? Is it just a general acceptance of clubs across the US? Is it because nobody wants to look around?

If I'm insured, who cares where I get it? [/QUOTE]

If "everyone thinks that you have to have AMA insurance to fly" they are misinformed.

Sorry, I do not understand the second question.

I think your third question assumes YOUR answer to the your answer question, and, thus has no meaning.

No one cares where you get your insurance. Where you fly is another matter.

If you really want to understand the insurance requirements by the AMA and it's clubs, you need to carefully read the AMA bylaws and the 2003 club charter package, found on the AMA web site.

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 12:09 PM   
Flug



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Status: offline 		J_R,

Since I became a member of the AMA in 1985 many have assumed that the AMA is the only acceptable insurance. I'm not talking about guys like you. I'm talking about the simple people out there trying to have fun while following the directions of the many.

The AMA has no authority to direct any part of this hobby. Unlike all your statements thus far, I've read a little more than you think. Maybe it's not all that you'ld want me to but it's enough to be clear on one point. The AMA has taken advantage of an opening that exists because someone wanted to expand our hobby. This is good as far as I'm concerned.

In 1987 - 1995 I flew competition pattern in many sanctioned AMA events. Every aspect of their bylaws, and their rules are based on recommendations and laws by governing bodies outside of their own . They recommend. They have no control over any aspect of this hobby other than their own events. Radio frequencies, bandwidth and all the other technical limitations etc are based on FCC laws, not the AMA. The AMA does not make law. They promote good behavior and sportsmanship in our hobby. They recommend ways to help everyone stay inline with the law and their own rules for their own events/sanctioned clubs.

I don't know where you came up with the thought that I needed to read pages of information to figure this stuff out. I read a couple threads in the beginning and quickly saw where this was going. The bottom line is that we're writing about dues...and the magazine in the other thread.

An audit shows many things that bylaws don't. If you assume that those numbers are accurate with the correct headings youl'd be fooling yourself. It's easy enough to read between the lines no matter how much information there may be. Yes, I could spend the entire day...after day reading threads, bylaws, audits and all the things you accused me of not reading. The sad thing is that I wouldn't see the big picture differently.

You may have also assumed that I was some crusader new to the hobby and that I came here to run my mouth like an idiot. You're right about the second part but I think you may have assumed the first. I've been dealing with the AMA for about 18 years. I've been president of two RC clubs. One was in Orange County CA. The other was at Spangdhalem AB Germany. I've helped with getting clubs sanctioned and have had plenty of talks about dues and the magazine. Why am I here now complaining? Because the AMA is out-pacing the hobby. Their dues are increasing without ample justification. Plain and simple.

If I want to guess...or be wrong or not do my homework, well, thats my problem. If you want to be at my heels nipping away and taking cheap shots...well, thats fine too. If I was to take a solid guess I'd bet you were pretty darned close to the AMA yourself. Obviously you feel comfortable that you've done the homework...at every turn. You obviously keep a close eye on this thread...and the others in AMA section. So, your welcome to protect whatever it is your trying to protect. If your not close to the AMA then how is it that you find the time to nit-pick the details.

Most of the people here accept the AMA because it takes the hassle out of flying or dealing with wierd insurance at an all AMA club. The competition minded, the club officers and those involved in the events appreciate the AMA because it gives them a sense of being part of the real thing. FAI is at the top. Without the AMA we'd be a bunch of individuals jumping through hoops to make anything happen. The AMA brings it all together. The AMA helps all of us at different levels. They encourage all the right things. I know this.

The only thing I don't like about the AMA is having such a large percentage of my money (and many others) go to buildings, investments and all the overhead they've created themselves. It's not like they couldn't do all the things we like with less money. They just keep taking larger and larger steps...and more money. Imagine an entire coporation built on the dues people pay to throw rocks into a river. Sure, we could have rock throwing contests and insurance etc...etc but we don't need to build a control tower and a runway. The AMA will continue to grow. Its just the way it is. Our dues will continue to pay for more and more until we come up with a recognized alternative.

The AMA has everyone by the balls and they know it. It's not a matter of knowing what we can do to cover ourselves. Its a matter of everyone becoming aware that there are alternatives. After they do, exceptions to the AMA will begin to increase among clubs across the US.

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 1:44 PM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		Flug

You got the wrong take. My assessment of you is someone that cares enough to find the information in the first place. That's unusual. If you were to read thorugh the threads you would find that I have been called an AMA representive and an AMA basher. I agree with most of your thoughts, although not necessarily with the reasoning.

You would also have found that the owner of RCU wants to sell off all the assets and turn the AMA into an insurance company, had you read the thread I pointed you at.

I did not suggest you read every thread in this forum. There are a couple that have the facts laid out by other people. I do not agree with some of the conclusions they drew, but, the numbers stand on thier own. We all have to agree with what they (the numbers) say, that is what they are for.

Personally, I hope you stick around a while. I am glad to see any newcomer, such as you , take an interest in the problems of the AMA, and the solutions to them.

Regarding your questions about insurance. The AMA requires that all flying members of an AMA chartered club be members of the AMA. The AMA does NOT require the club to require all flyers at the club field to be AMA members. That is a club decision. Any club that has good sense and the welfare of the club membership and the land owner is going to require that all pilots be members of the AMA. There are exceptions, such as a club that has the non-exclusive use of a field owned by some level of government.

Oh, and I got to tell you.... I hate the us vs. them thing. The AMA IS US.
JR

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 9:38 PM   
scratchnfly-RCU


 

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From: Emmaus, PA
Status: offline 		I don't know about you guys but I'm buyin one of those cool gold bricks to line the sidewalk of the white castle. I was looking to buy a new OS 91FS, but what the hell, I guess Dave needs it more. After all he's done for me, publishing a crappy mag, which includes a monthly letter from the blowhole himself, it's the least I could do;-)

But seriously...
My membership has run out and Im currently making nice nice with a local farmer for a place to fly. I'll miss not flying with the guys at the field, but what the heck, I'll be back to doing what I love most, building and flying model airplanes with my son, and not supporting the white castle in Muncie along with the beaurocratic blowholes that reside within.

respectfully,
scratchnfly

....I await the nastygrams....;-)

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[b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 2/25/2003 9:46 PM   
Flug



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Status: offline 		Well taken.

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/23/2011 10:56 PM   
bluzjamer


 

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Status: offline 		Ok I have to toss in my nickle here...can't get anything for $.02 anymore.
I thought the last time I renewed it was like $45 for the renewal.....now they want $58. The kicker is I had a ton of work to do around the yard and home and didn't get to fly even once this year. I have a motorcycle that I need to pay taxes on and insure and didn't get to ride it even once yet this year. I'm not a kid I'm on SS....fixed income guys and gals. I know its a volentary hobby. I know the ama is a good thing and is needed. I feel the increase isn't needed. Allow me to cut costs by getting the magazine electronically. There is a huge savings in this. NRA does it. These are hard times, people that do work are getting their wages cut or have a freeze on their wages. Everyone is paying more for everything. Last thing we all need is some salt in our wounds. AMA give us all a break and stop it.
bluz

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/23/2011 11:35 PM   
Hossfly



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Status: offline 		Kinda' making a big jump there, ' bluzjamer'. Almost 9 years between your post and the previous one. You must hae been doing a lot of Jaming with the Blue Brothers or such.

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/23/2011 11:49 PM   
scale only 4 me



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Status: offline 		I was away for a few (5-6) years doing other hobbies,,, the $58 gave me sticker shock when I renewed too.

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/24/2011 12:29 AM   
Red Scholefield



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quote:

ORIGINAL: scale only 4 me

I was away for a few (5-6) years doing other hobbies,,, the $58 gave me sticker shock when I renewed too.


Then gas prices should have given you a coronary.

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/24/2011 4:33 AM   
scale only 4 me



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Status: offline 		No,, I didn't not drive for 5-6 years,, try to keep up Red.

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/29/2011 6:33 PM   
makmov


 

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Status: offline 		pffffft.

I might just give up on anything big and powered.

AMA 58
Club fee 59
runway fee 25
Park fee 79

$221.00 a year.

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/29/2011 9:30 PM   
Jim Branaum


 

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What kind of deal is that? Runway fee? I heard Colorado was full of folks wanting to redistribute the wealth, and I guess you have found them.

I belong to 3 clubs and pay dues to AOPA, EAA, and AMA in addition to the EAA Chapter dues. I think it all adds up to around $350 a year for the privlidge of committing avaition. The bottom line is that you are committed or not. Committed folks don't care, they just do it.


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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/29/2011 10:14 PM   
makmov


 

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Status: offline 		They repaved and extended the runway I guess.

The good side is it is only a mile and a half from my front door, and of the perhaps 30 times I have been out to to the field only once did I see anyone flying out there. I guess that pretty cheap for your own private field with two runways, at least most of time.
 
I own a Porsche 911 and belong to the PCA and their dues are that much, even with my Rennlist Membership and Regional dues combined are not that much, not even close.

I guess you are right, if you are commited and you would have to be or should be commited paying 221 to fly. I keep wanting to go back to aiplanes, I have a bunch of them, but I can fly small electric helis in my front yard for FREE!. So the past few years I have just been doing the helis, which I have a bunch of those too, now.

Nevertheless, I keep having the urge to fly planes, even though at this ten seconds I don't even have a plane ready fly, but if I build one, which I have been itching to do, I will want to fly it... so I guess I will have to be committed...

And I have a bunch of planes: Aerostar 20, Wing Mfg Wildcat short kit, GC Ultimate Bip, TF P40, TF Hollywood Zero, Sig Citabria, GP T-craft, GP RV-4, Ziroli Zero kit, Royal Zero, and dozens of plans.  

In addition, have tons of radio equipment, engines, gear I could have several planes up and running in no time. Then I start thinking about the small fortune in fees. I really don't like the club thing - previous bad experiences, and I really don't care too much for the AMA, which has left me torn. The last club I belong to had a special event almost all the time, which I really wasn't  interested in most of the events. A lot of so called events were not even flying events but soical events, open houses, and other nonsense. The rest of the time the feild was closed and gated off, ( the rule being that a senior member had to be there with a key to open the field up) it was complete bs, so the last year I belong, I paid my AMA dues, my club dues, and field fee and never flew there, notta a once. I kind of hung it up after that whole ordeal.

I got a Parkzone Wildcat on order, at least I can flying that without a bunch of brain damage, hopefully, and I will see how that goes. If I get hooked again then I will just have to bit the bullet; however, I will be cringing when I do.

< Message edited by makmov -- 9/29/2011 10:35 PM >

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 9/29/2011 11:56 PM   
scale only 4 me



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum




What kind of deal is that? Runway fee? I heard Colorado was full of folks wanting to redistribute the wealth, and I guess you have found them.

I belong to 3 clubs and pay dues to AOPA, EAA, and AMA in addition to the EAA Chapter dues. I think it all adds up to around $350 a year for the privlidge of committing avaition. The bottom line is that you are committed or not. Committed folks don't care, they just do it.



Don't ask questions,, Just grab your koolaid and sit down

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 10/5/2011 8:03 PM   
Jim Branaum


 

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Status: offline 		Makmov, while you seem to have found a great club full of redistributers and rules mechanics there is no evidence that you ever considered getting involved and changing the attitude. I have and found that the vast majority of all club members just want a place to fly and put up with the rules created by the anal folks that simply must have somebody to control. The club members tend to railroad anyone willing to take a 'less rules and less BS' approach. Great clubs are generally found where the membership has decided to become involved enough to 'manage' the anal rules makers by electing others. You could get interested and help provide part of the solution. Then you could have some cheese with your wine.

Not having AMA is a risky position to hold, especially given your location.

Scale only 4 me, you are mistaken. No where did I mention or suggest following along blindly. I have been involved as a club officer for over 15 years and pour the Koolaid, sir.

What efforts and good things have you contributed to your local fellow fliers?


To put a point on it, I agree dues are high but so is gasoline, bread, college tution, and other things my family needs/wants/enjoys.





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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 10/5/2011 8:55 PM   
makmov


 

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From: Aurora, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Perhaps you are right. However, I have been elected president to anoher club in the past, I am not so sure I want to be that involved again. I just want to fly without brain damage.  Becoming a officer isn't likely to change the fees.

In any event that was a different club in a different state where I had most of the unpleasentries.

I was also heavily involved in deveoping another flying feild, that was publicly owned clubless. It was disignated for a model flying field that nobody ever did anything with until we got involved. The Municipality that had juristiction over "recommended AMA membership, but did not require it, and there was only a small access fee for a pass. It was a real low key deal.

So it's not like I have paid my dues.

I am not so sure about the risk flying without AMA membership. As I understand it, AMA insurance is SECONDARY to any primary insurance and only pays out when all other options have been exhausted.

Since I own a house, and have homeowners and full coverage on all our vehicles any cliams would like be delt with through AmFam, which has a far more of a broad stroke of coverage than the AMA insurance, which is "EXCESS" insurance.

So I kind of sour on the insurance bit from AMA.

I also wonder who underwrites their insurance. I would like to see the full clip.

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 10/5/2011 9:18 PM   
Red Scholefield



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quote:

ORIGINAL: makmov

I am not so sure about the risk flying without AMA membership. As I understand it, AMA insurance is SECONDARY to any primary insurance and only pays out when all other options have been exhausted.

Since I own a house, and have homeowners and full coverage on all our vehicles any cliams would like be delt with through AmFam, which has a far more of a broad stroke of coverage than the AMA insurance, which is ''EXCESS'' insurance.



Its not the insurance you have, but the guy that has none and hits your car or worse hits you. If he is flying without AMA membership you could find yourself in deep doo-doo financially at least.

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RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 10/5/2011 9:24 PM   
makmov


 

Posts: 155
Score: 105
Joined: 9/24/2009
Last Login: 11/11/2011
From: Aurora, CO, USA
Status: offline 		That is why I have full coverage on my cars and good coverage on my house. So even if someone with no insurance does something my insurance will cover it. They will go after the guy without insurance.

Nevertheless, I guess AMA insurance is better than no insurance, but what about someone like me who has virtually ZERO liablity agianst AMA's insurance clip.

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(in reply to Red Scholefield)
       Post #: 123

RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 10/5/2011 9:57 PM   
makmov


 

Posts: 155
Score: 105
Joined: 9/24/2009
Last Login: 11/11/2011
From: Aurora, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Is AMA self insured or who underwrites it. I might want to underwrite it.

According to the AMA insurance finacial report 2010

They collected  in premiums 885,440.08 and paid out 68,103.71 in claims.  Although their report doesn't make a lot of sense because the added paid claims to premiums... for a grand total of  953,543.79. It does not make sense. 

8% loss ratio. I'd be in on this all day long. Okay you are going to have admin, but still how much could that be, another 8%.

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(in reply to makmov)
       Post #: 124

RE: [b]AMA Dues Increase[b/] - 10/5/2011 10:36 PM   
Silent-AV8R



Posts: 4799
Score: 180
Joined: 3/16/2004
Last Login: 6/19/2013
From: Orange County, CA, USA
Status: offline 		AMA is self insured for the first $250,000. The liability policy is with Westchester General. The Medical policy is with Chubb.

Document 500-L to 500-N are the policies themselves:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/documents.aspx

_____________________________

Be aware and prepared, or pay the price of ignorance.

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(in reply to makmov)
       Post #: 125

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