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lithium batteries - 8/24/2002 7:09:48 AM   
flyinrazrback



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has anyone used the new lithium battery packs? can they be charge with like a hobbico accucycle charger? any info on these batteriers would be great, they seem to have lots of storage capacity in small size, any pros and cons appreciated
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lithium batteries - 8/24/2002 7:17:27 AM   
Vince


 

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Most chargers will not handle them, they require a voltage regulator to work with current RX & servos. They are also obscenely expensive. I think it's going to be a while before they replace nicad's and nimh.

Vince

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lithium batteries - 8/25/2002 2:35:26 AM   
Aero330LX



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Hmmm...the post above suggests "obscenely expensive". I suggest that that depends on who you talk to, and what they are flying. That also depends on where you get them from.The packs do have a higher price tag, but with that you get longer flight time on one charge, less hassle, near zero maintence, better reliability, longer life, and because of the regulator that's used you get consistent power to the servos. For example...6 volts from first flight to last with no dreaded dropoff. Look for these batteries to replace current obsolete technology sooner than later.

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lithium batteries - 8/25/2002 6:39:07 AM   
Vince


 

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Re above

Ok, here is what I found.

Powerflite lithium ion.
4 cell 2400ma capacity $99.95 @ RCshowcase
same price here http://www.bktsi.com/powerflite/chargers.htm

Sanyo high capacity NICAD @ Batteries America
4 cell 2400ma $26.00

Sanyo NIMH
4 cell 2700ma $24.00 @ Batteries America

I may be a little slow, but the difference is obvious to me, plus add that now I will have to have a lithium ion specific charger (I didn't price them), and a voltage regulator.

I am not trying to say that LI will never replace either NICAD, or NIMH. I AM saying that if the price does not come down dramatically, it will be a while before they do. They do have advantages over both NICAD and NIMH, I don't deny that. Are the advantages worth the considerably higher cost? That will remain a personal decision for some time to come IMO. To suggest that because I do not fly LI and I do fly NICAD, that somehow my plane is less reliable,....well is a bit of a stretch.

NICAD's have been and will remain for some time to come the standard and are "rock" solid reliable for our use. With the current price structure of LI cells, it will be "obscenely" expensive to replace NICAD or NIMH cells in all applications. Probably on par with the great freon scam that was perpetrated on the taxpayer.

Vince

< Message edited by Vince -- Aug 25 2002 1:47AM >


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lithium batteries - 8/25/2002 9:14:31 AM   
mglavin



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aero330LX
Hmmm...the post above suggests "obscenely expensive". I suggest that that depends on who you talk to, and what they are flying. That also depends on where you get them from.The packs do have a higher price tag, but with that you get longer flight time on one charge, less hassle, near zero maintence, better reliability, longer life, and because of the regulator that's used you get consistent power to the servos. For example...6 volts from first flight to last with no dreaded dropoff. Look for these batteries to replace current obsolete technology sooner than later. [/QUOTE]

Seems to me you've been mislead...

Are you using Li-Ion cells in your GS models???

Li-Ion's provide no longer flight time time than any other cell of like capacity..... 2800mah Li-Ion is 2800mah NiCD/NiMH.... If both packs are fully charged they both deliver 2800mah on one charge...

Li-Ion's are no more hassle free than other's. In fact they have peculiarities of there own. Series-parallel packs for multiple hi-power servos, regulators, low current output capabilities 3.5amps max per 2-cell pack.

Li-Ion's are no more reliable than any other battery types we use. The switching regulator adds multiple failure possibilities.

Li-Ions are offer no more life than any other battery type we use. Estimated life is 400 cycles currently... Maybe more if you recharge them frequently, prior to complete discharge.

Li-Ions use the regulator to drop the voltage to a usable number, many specific voltages can be selected. Higher current draw requires either two regulators per series-paralell pack or one HD regulator to handle the current draw of four or more hi-power servos. The regulator also masks the reality of the non-linear discharge curve realized with Li-Ions's. You really need a regulator with these jewels for multiple reasons. Drop-off, these cells only understand a constant non-linear fall to oblivion.

NiCD/NiMH discharge on a fairly flat curve and then fall off. This ideal for our use... They do this without benefit or need of a regulator.

Li-Ions are prone to complete and irreversible failure if over-charged or over-discharged.

Li-Ions only real desirable feature is their weight and energy density.

In order to equip a GS dual RX model with 10 digital servos, you'll need three parallel-series packs of at least 2800mah. Regulators for three packs, dependent on the offering of your supplier you might need six regulators, a multi tap charger, four sets of leads/adapters and a 120v power supply/wall wart.

Typical price is around $460.00 for one model.

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Mislead? Whaaat?!?!? - 8/25/2002 10:24:51 PM   
Aero330LX



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I think your post is more misleading actually. Firstly, yes I do in fact use the new Li-Ion packs, and have some numbers written down that should prove very interesting to you. Flight time, 12- 15 minute flights on one single charge. Please don't try that with a 2800 NiCd...it could be a long winter if you know what I mean. Hassle... No need for cycling, no problem with amp output when you use the proper pack...i.e. NO one I know uses a single 2 cell pack in a high current demand sysytem. Here's some numbers... A 35% airplane with 7 servos draws 4.5 amps tops. A 2800 pack uses 4 cells whick gives 7 amps...plenty of margin. The Li-Ion cells are extremely reliable, not to mention the packs built with more than 2 cells are redundant...meaning there is NO posibility of a crash because a cell dropped out. You land...you check, and then you see it. Regulators? Have you had one fail lately? Have you ever seen one fail. They are extremely reliable. The only thing I could think of that could cause problems (not a failure, but a user mistake) would be a connector coming loose, and that would be caused by the user not secureing it properly. Do they fail? yes, EVERYTHING fails, however, it's highly unlikely. Where you got the figure for 400 cycles I don't know, but that is not the figure that has been shown through testing, and is not the figure the manufacturer of the cells suggest. I assume that may have come from Powerflight...they have had issues keeping the packs balanced. No such issues with these packs. As for the regulator, absolutly...I wouldn't consider putting 8.4v to my Rx.'s, so yes it is needed. As for non-linear again, absolutly. I wouldn't want to see a straight-line (linear) dropoff. The NiCd's have a plateau yes, but the kicker is the amount of flight time you get before that big drop. That time is approximately 4-5 flights, then you have to charge. After 12 flights with the Li-Ions I simply go home...it's dark. The batteries still have flights on them and I recharge. This is good because they are never "pushed" to the limit. Overcharge, and discharge is a non-issue. Yopu simply plug the correct charger in and it cuts at the proper voltage. The circuitry is built right into the battery to control this. Disharging below recomended can only happen through the users fault...it is not a fault of the battery. If you leave the switch on and they get to 5.5v, yes they will shutdown. For those that have the habit of leaving the switch on (personally I don't know many) there is a cutoff that can be bought to prevent damage to the packs. This statement I really don't have a reply for, except that while I've been using them I have found them to be superior in every way. The above re: should confirm that. As for setup, 3 2800 are a little much...Actually a 1900 on the IGN and 2 2800's are sufficient. with that the IGN will last as long as the flight batteries...maybe a tad less which is desireable, but it's very close. As I said above, haven't been able to fly enough in one day to bring them down to the no-fly voltage. Total price for my setup was around $278 dollars. Add a 5.1v IGN reg in there though...I already had one of those on hand. Don't think that reg will cost 200 bucks though. Try some of these...you'll find they work just like they're supposed to...just like I did. Just charge them, fly them, check them, and when you get tired, charge them again. As long as you check them every flight you'll be fine...no need for paranoia.

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lithium batteries - 8/26/2002 8:43:03 AM   
mglavin



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All right Tim, lets try again.

Flight time 12] fifteen minutes flights. Your numbers which I believe are very conservative; [COLOR=blue]4.5amps from 7] hi-torque servo's in a 33% model. [/COLOR]

Standard Digital servo's consume:
Idle: 0.04 - 0.1a, Surface weight: 0.25 - 0.34a, ganged/fighting another off center: 0.8 - 1.1a, loaded: 3.2 - 3.5a. These were the average measurements of 20] JR-8411's...

12 x 15m = 180 minutes of flight or 3.0hours flight time.

Let's keep in mind any 2800mah battery will deliver 2800 ma for one hour, or 2.8amps for one hour at 100% capacity.

2800 divided by 180 = 15.5ma consumed per minute at 100% capacity. So you were consuming .0155a per minute. I don't think so.... Unless your using two 2800mah packs. I could not ascetain one way or the other from your post. But it makes sense if this case. But then again this will hold true for any type of battery.
In any event Li-Ions cannot provide more flight time than any other packs of like capacity, end of story. It's impossible. Li-Ion's are discgharged to 5.5v at capacity. 5-cell NiCd's or NiMH are discharged to 5.5v or less at capacity. The drop-off voltage or plateaua you mention is favorable to other cell types, much more so. A linear discharge curve is desireable. What advantage do you see providied by a non-linear discharge curve which requires switching regulators to provide steady voltage??? At 5.5v the Li-Ion's are finished. At 5.5v NiCd's or NiMH's are good, in reality down to 1.0v per cell or 5.0v after that there finished too. Capacity has been depleted and voltage is less than desireable. Same is true in either circumstance.

A 33% IMAC model with eight digital servos typically consumes at the least 30ma per minute. Current draw is typically 2 amps to 10 amps plus. 2800 divided by 30 = 93.3 minutes/1hr.-33min. flight time at 100% discharge capacity.

Problem here is, no one in there right mind would fly there model down to 100% discharge. Most consider 60% the safe zone.

[COLOR=blue]>The Li-Ion cells are extremely reliable, not to mention the packs built with more than 2 cells are redundant...[/COLOR]

What's this mean, compared to what? NiCd's and NiMH are extremely reliable, durable, capable and well proven. Li-Ion's have proven to be no more reliable than the above under normal use. Anytime you provide multiple packs you employ the redundancy factor, this is good. You could easily do the same thing with two packs of any variety with half the presumed capacity.

[COLOR=blue]>Regulators? Have you had one fail lately? Have you ever seen one fail. They are extremely reliable. [/COLOR]

It's not uncommon for a regulator to fail. I haven't had any failures of late because I quit using them. I did'nt care for the increased failure points i.e., connections at either end and the regulator itself.

The overcharge circuitry is another possible failure point within each pack as you mention. Not all suppliers are utilizing this concept. Most are suggesting a dedicated auto-cut-off charger.

Sources for estimated life cycles are numerous here are a few.
Sanyo, Panasonic, Nexergy, Cadex Inc., Polystor Corporation, National Semi Conductor....

All current technology is limited to a life cycle testing by frequency of cycles. This is an unrealistic approach as time/age is also a deciding factor.

150-200 cycles @ 100% discharge.
400-500 cycles @ 50% discharge delivering @ 80% capacity.
500 plus cycles @ 30% or shallow/redundant discharge @ 80% capacity.

Li-Ion's expected life in real time is 2-3years from date of manufacture, used or not... Chemical reaction dictates the life. Extremely cold temp's extends the time life. The numbers above are rated at room temp [77F] the numbers decrease considerably at elevated temperatures [100F].

In summary:

Li-Ion's are a new technology that is very appealing to weight conscious modeler's. Excellent application for low current draw use's. No memory. You get the most out of them if you use em and charge em frequently. Extended flight/discharge time is a recipe for short real time and cycle life. Average life 2-3 years.

The cost consideration as previously referenced for a dual RX GS model. I chose the 2800mah vs. 1900mah for two reasons.

1]$10.00 difference in cost and I have all the same size packs.

2] A twin engine ignition typically has a current draw of 600 ma, this is an average of the actual draw. Each firing cycle the current will go from a low ma maintenance current to up to 8 Amps This high draw occurs when charging the Capacitor for the next firing command. A high internal resistance battery may not be able to transfer energy sufficient (or fast enough) to charge the capacitor adequately to generate a good spark.

One charger would be a nightmare. $60.00 more makes it simple and a one time operation for charging the model and maybe a TX.

Recognized major Li-Ion supplier:

Charger. 3-RX port, 1-TX port $ 72.95
Wall adapter for charger $ 19.95
4-sets of charge lead adapters $ 31.80
1-set power input leads $ 6.95
3-2800mah series-parallel packs $236.85
3-regulators $ 98.85
+_______

TOTAL -------------------------------------- $467.35

You could do a 33% single RX model for $277.00 with two 2800mah, [1] ignition and [1] RX pack and one single charger. Add another RX pack for $72.95..

If anyone thought I was suggesting the Li-Ions were not a viable product for our models, let me assure you I was not. These cells will prove to be well liked and used, less the initial expense and life expectancy. They undoubtedly have there place in the battery world and ours.

< Message edited by mglavin -- Aug 26 2002 6:01AM >


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The voltages are not the same - 8/30/2002 9:29:51 AM   
smokinT


 

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"Li-Ion's provide no longer flight time time than any other cell of like capacity..... 2800mah Li-Ion is 2800mah NiCD/NiMH.... If both packs are fully charged they both deliver 2800mah on one charge"


Wrong.

A higher voltage pack of equal "current capacity" will have a greater duration. Li-Ion packs (i.e. Powerflite, Duralite Plus) use ~3.6 V cell building blocks. A 7.2V 2,000mAh Li-ion will outlast a 6V (5 cell) 2,000mAh NiCd/NiMh and also will be lighter (assumes same current draw).

I have been using Powerflite Li-ion for the last six months with great success. Mostly in 1/3 scale aerobats using six digital servos (8411) and one analog (8101). My configuration in this size plane is three 2,000mAh Powerflites w/ three regulators into one Rx and ignition. Previously I had been using three 1,650 NimH 5 cell packs and prior to that three Duralite Li 1,600 packs.
My flight times were drastically increased with the Powerflite.
I now have over 200 flights w/o problems. Others I know have used the Powerflites over two years now in 40% IMAC planes w/o problems. The Duralite Plus should be the same.

There are pros/cons to all the battery systems.

Powerflite (Li-Ion) Cons:
Expensive, requires a 6V regulator and special charger, no fast field charging.

Powerflite (Li-ion) Pros:
Lightest system currently available. Highest energy density currently available. Holds charge longer than NiCd and much better than NiMh. Not affected by temp as much as NiMh.

Why get them?

I got them for one main reason: I practice IMAC sequences on a limited schedule. I will fly 6-12 12 minute sequences/practice rounds in 2-3 hours. I don't have time to recharge and the LiIon will get me this many flights where my other systems would not. Another less expensive alternative would be to have freshly charged NiMh packs and swap out after the first 6 flights. Frankly, I like the idea of fast-charging if I have the time as I know that the "tank is full". You will not have that luxury with Li-Ion but they do have a fairly predictable discharge curve (a nice laminated chart of this at different currents is included with the Powerflite packs). BTW I am using the Duralite 1A load voltage meter to check these.

Good luck,

Todd

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lithium batteries - 8/30/2002 7:11:43 PM   
mglavin



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[COLOR=blue]

>A higher voltage pack of equal "current capacity" will have a greater duration. Li-Ion packs (i.e. Powerflite, Duralite Plus) use ~3.6 V cell building blocks. A 7.2V 2,000mAh Li-ion will outlast a 6V (5 cell) 2,000mAh NiCd/NiMh and also will be lighter (assumes same current draw).< [/COLOR]

I disagree. Again it matters not what type of cell, a capacity rating is a capacity rating assigned by the cell manufacturer. Voltage is not a factor...

Where do you get this information that supports these statements. Any battery pack that has a capacity rating, has been so rated by the manufacturer. I am sure they understand the ability of their cells. Discharge voltage and capacity has been plotted and tested, they certainly do not arbitrarily claim their cells have a capacity of less than they actually deliver on average...

Voltage or "higher voltage" has nothing to do with capacity.

If the Li-Ions actually had a higher "current capacity" as you mention they would discharge faster. Higher current draw or discharge amperage cause and effect is faster discharge times... Or the higher the voltage the faster the cell will discharge it's capacity. This is a known electrical fact, not supposition... In fact Li-ions are well known for there lack of current/amperage delivery due to the nature of the cell chemistry they have comparatively very high "Internal Resistance" this is the reason you need to gain them in multiples series-parallel packs to get a usable current/amperage number for larger demands such as high power servos in multiples...

As mentioned earlier, Li-ions require banking of there cells by using them in multiples of two, which nets 7.2v. The recommended discharge too safe voltage is 5.5v. Ni-Cds/NiMh is similar 5.5v would be conservative, in fact 5.0v can be used if the cells are load tested and verified...

I believe what causes this disparaging difference in claimed run times is relative to completely understanding the discharge characteristics. I.e. your quitting long before the capacity is used up with NiCd/NiMH cells. These cells as mentioned earlier offer a a very flat discharge curve.

I have a number of Li-ions batteries on the way. Series-parallel 2800mah packs for a new 40% model and another 80" model. I intend to cycle the packs to verify capacity ratings. I will be greatly suprised to see them cycle much beyond the rated capacity.

I mentioned earlier that burning down these Li-ion cells down to capacity or even 50% of rated capacity will net a short life cycle. Best performance will be realized with frequent charge cycles after short periods of use.

< Message edited by mglavin -- Aug 30 2002 8:10PM >


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lithium batteries - 8/30/2002 11:33:15 PM   
sanjoh



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mglavin,

Why r U going to use lithium-ion? Will this be your initial experience with lithium-ion in an RC application?

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lithium batteries - 8/31/2002 1:18:01 AM   
mglavin



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sanjoh

I want to try out this technology, seems they've worked out the bugs and as mentioned they are very light...

I have used all the other battery technologies offered in our hobby. Actually I am still using them all. I have several 40% models rigged with the original Duralites, I'm using NiMH in several other 40% models and I have many smaller models with NiMH and NiCd's.

In a smaller weight burdened model I believe the weight savings to be very desirable.

< Message edited by mglavin -- Aug 30 2002 9:39PM >


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