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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/16/2004 4:00:01 AM   
TT2



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The microballoon / glass mixture has cured to a point where I thought I'd start evaluating it. The resulting density figured (very loosely) to be around 21 lb / cu ft...much less than the dough and less than one-fourth that of the sand matrix. The sample was MUCH harder than expected...full thumbnail force would just barely dent it. The stiffness was quite acceptable and would be further enhanced by sandwiching this mixture between layers of glass cloth as the majority have recommended. The resistance to breakage was far better than expected...the test piece was 2 5/8" diameter and averaged about 0.20" thick. The piece could be snapped in half by hand but only when considerable force was applied...nearly all I could give it and I’m no girly-man. Understand to that the sample had probably not reached a 'full' cure yet.

The strength of this 'dough' is probably overkill as is but could certainly be increased by additional amounts of chopped glass.

The surface that was against the coffee-can lid ‘mold’ was glossy with very few voids, and certainly no voids larger than one or two thousandths of an inch. Cross-sections of the sample showed hardly any void content. I didn’t go to extremes when I was packing the mixture onto the mold and would probably take more time on a production piece.

I have rethought the Q-Cells and believe that glass (not phenolic) microballoons should be used since they are the hardest of the hollow spheres.

I would think that the dimensional stability would be the same as the sand matrix molds even over time. The advantage here is that much lighter framework, parting boards, etc. could be used, and the mold wouldn't have any tendency to sag under it's own weight over time…which may be a serious consideration with larger sand molds. I'm sure a 'drop test' of the microballoon / chopped glass mold would far outperform the sand mold...

Bottom line is that I’m lovin’ the microballoon / chopped glass / epoxy and will be using it on my upcoming canopy, cowling, and wheel pant molds for the 30% 50cc Edge 540 that I’m developing. I’m fully convinced that it will produce extremely strong, yet lightweight, molds…far superior to using Coremat as a thickening layer. When you really think about it, substituting the microballoons for the sand makes perfect sense...they're made from silica just like grains of sand, but they're smaller in diameter (which seems to be desirable) and HOLLOW! Though I haven't experimented with the sand I would guess that placement of the microballoon / chopped glass onto the mold would be a bit easier...not quite as nice as the apparently supreme handling qualities of the RT2C dough though...

My question to all of you is this: Has anyone heard of using microballoons during moldmaking before? I’ve been playing around with composites for over a decade and haven’t heard anything good or bad about the subject. What seems the most curious is that chopped glass and microballoons are as common in any composite shop as epoxy! I’m just wondering if someone has tried this method and it proved to result in poor quality molds over time. Just being paranoid I guess…everyone thinks I’m paranoid…

UPDATE: I mixed up another batch in an attempt to arrive at somewhat accurate mixture ratios for those of you who want to try it. By volume: 1 part resin, 1/3 parts chopped glass, 2.5 parts microballoons. This results in an easy handling mixture. I added a layer of 6 oz glass to the mold (coffee can lid) face and spread out the mixture, then backed it up with another layer of glass. I found that after the dough is placed in a fairly consistent thickness on the mold, applying the top layer of glass makes it very easy to smooth the underlying dough out without any of it sticking to the gloves. Also, the top layer of glass becomes wet-out without any additional resin (though an additional application of resin may be desirable to smooth out the outside of the mold).

-Tom

< Message edited by TT2 -- 12/16/2004 6:06:35 AM >


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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/16/2004 6:02:01 AM   
Mike James



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Microballoons and epoxy are plenty stable enough.

Personally, I'm going with the sand. I don't care about the weight issue, and it's a LOT cheaper than microballoons or the other materials you mentioned. The savings in time, glass cloth and epoxy are the main advantages of the sand/epoxy method for me.


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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/16/2004 6:17:20 AM   
TT2



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Mike, I was a bit over zealous after my first microballoon experiment. After I figured out what the mix ratios actually were I found the microballoon method to be more expensive than originally thought. The sand method is still very attractive...it's sooooo cheap, and the hardness of the mold can't be beat...for 'soft' tooling that is. I still need to get some sand!

-Tom

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/16/2004 2:30:37 PM   
heli001



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Blasting beads may be the answer....a bit lighter than sand, uniform round shape and very cheap. I will check on the pricing as compared to "play ground or blasting" sand today. If I remember correctly, it is roughly 1 dollar more than a standard 90 pound bag of sand.

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/16/2004 2:36:34 PM   
TT2



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Excellent idea! I'm guessing, thought, that the mix ratio would be similar to the microballoons.

Assuming that the mix ratio of sand is indeed 10:1 as we have presumed then something here doesn't make sense. Since the smaller particles (microballoons or blasting beads) can be more tightly compacted (leaving less annular space between the 'balls' for the epoxy) then shouldn't the amount of epoxy be LESS than if using the larger grains of sand? Hmmm...maybe the ratio of the sand isn't anywhere near 10:1...maybe it's closer to 4:1...which would ultimately increase the cost of the resulting mixture.

Could it be that the larger grains of sand are carrying with them lots of air when the stuff is mixed together?

This riddle is killing me! I'm going to go rob some sand from the neighbor kid's sand box RIGHT NOW! I suppose I can 'dry' it in the oven.

< Message edited by TT2 -- 12/16/2004 3:37:29 PM >


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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/16/2004 4:18:12 PM   
HenrikJohansson


 

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I have made almost all my molds with sand, and it works very well. Naturally they get very heavy though.
Don't put all your trust in the sand, lay down a couple of layers of glass as well.

Don't be so obsessive about the mix ratio, just add sand until it is easy to work with and leave it there....

The smaller grain size you have, the more epoxy it will take due to the larger overall surface that needs to be covered with epoxy.
When you use !QUOT!normal!QUOT! sand all the voids don't get filled with epoxy they get filled with air. if you use finer sand, the air voids will be less.

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/16/2004 4:37:11 PM   
TT2



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I realize that I'm beating this subject to death, and it may sound like paralysis by analysis, but there is a reason behind my fixation on which matrix to use. I’ve got some very large molds coming up in the not-so-distant future...around 30 sq. ft…and I am trying to balance all the factors before I make a final decision on what mold thickener to use. I had considered a grid of divinycel panels separated by about ¼” glass / resin (gridlines) but I’m worried about delamination when handling the molds and deformation over time…so my quest for enlightenment continues…

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/16/2004 8:03:21 PM   
Bill Jennings


 

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What a great thread. I would like to thank all you blokes for the information that you have made available. It has been a great learning curve for me. Thank you all.
Regards.
Bill.

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/17/2004 4:53:58 AM   
macro-RCU


 

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What about Polyester resin and sand... may be sand can stop shrink effect...


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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/17/2004 9:55:01 AM   
Magne


 

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Hello.
The use of fillers (such as sand) in production of wing molds has been used extensively by the glider people for years.
For pictures of typical wing molds see this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141255&highlight=raketenwurm
These molds are back-filled to greater thicknesses, to form solid mold "blocks". (Similar to what you would have if the female mold was machined from a solid block of material.)
It is however very interesting (and new to me), how this well established method is being adapted here for use in the manufacture of shell molds, e.g. for fuselages, canopies etc. where filling up the entire thickness to make a block would require too much material.
I like the idea of using microballoons and chopped glass.
Thank you for all your development and testing work.
Regards,
Magne

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/17/2004 10:21:23 AM   
HenrikJohansson


 

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I will also make some relative large molds soon. I will use sand, as I've made in the past, but this time I'll add some chopped glass to add strength to the sand matrix. Weight is a concern though. I've seen sand molds which takes to people to carry...

I've made a small mold once (spinner) with microbaloons as distance material. It got very light (no surprise). The downside is that it takes a LOT of microbaloons to mix even a small cup of paste...

Making molds with polyester is a bad idea, they don't last long and they don't hold the shape very well. I't is cheap though but thats it...
I have no experience of polyester molds of my own, I herd this from a frend who makes more molds than i do.

< Message edited by HenrikJohansson -- 12/17/2004 10:22:48 AM >

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/17/2004 6:40:08 PM   
buttuh


 

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Going from epoxy to polyester is a big step the wrong direction.

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/19/2004 3:55:22 AM   
boater


 

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Just a thought-- would bean bag chair filler ( polystyrene foam beads) have any application here, not alone, but maybe as a weight modifier?? Oooorrr maybe crushed (not too crushed)volcanic porous stone??

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RE: Sand / epoxy molds - 12/19/2004 1:33:15 PM   
TT2



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Rudy, I don't know about the EPS beads...I think there would be a problem with inconsistencies in the final mix. The volcanic rock might work great if you can find it in small enough rocks...something smaller than 'pea gravel'. Anything is worth experimenting with!!!

I've let another chopped glass and microballoon test piece fully cure. This one is about 7" in diameter, 1/4" thickness (max.), one layer of 6 oz glass both sides...applied with no additional resin. The piece turned out very light, incredibly stiff. I tried to break it by placing the center of it at the edge of my workbench and pushing on it with all of my 175 lbs...my feet were coming off the floor. I couldn't get it to break! The surface did not dent either. Wow!

I'm still going to try the sand method since it's undeniably economical but I'm pretty sure that the microballoon / chopped glass is the method I'll be using for most of my small to medium sized molds. An added benefit to the microballoon / chopped glass is that it can be rolled out with a rolling pin (like grandma's bisquits) to an even thickness then slapped onto the mold in one large-ish sheet. This makes it a bit easier to keep the thickness consistent and takes very little time. I have yet to experiment with the RT2C dough...it should arrive within a few days.

-Tom

< Message edited by TT2 -- 12/19/2004 3:31:28 PM >


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