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Standard vs. Expert - 8/8/2002 2:06:52 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		I think I have straight now. I buy "legal" engine. If it is capable of 22K on a 9x6 no problem. Just set it for 16.5k on the line. WOW! (This explains a lot!)

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       Post #: 51

Standard vs. Expert - 8/8/2002 2:45:46 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]There are no nine lappers left at most races.....[/QUOTE]
Just a coincidence - I am sure. :

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       Post #: 52

Standard vs. Expert - 8/8/2002 3:05:59 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		At PGRC's annual pylon planning meeting last Nov., I suggested the adoption of APRA rules for 424. Now I understand why no one agreed.

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       Post #: 53

Standard vs. Expert - 8/8/2002 7:19:18 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		PGRC for Prince Georges R/C - where the Bowie JR Gold Cup is held in May. We scheduled six 424 and six 428 races this year. We conform to NEPRO (thus the TT 40) in hopes of drawing a few from up North. We do draw some in 428, but few if any in 424. We get a few from NJ. When I moved to So. MD 20+ years ago, there were three local clubs holding Q500 races. Now PGRC is the only club in the mid Atlantic states scheduling races.
If the engine is [Q]...capable... [/Q] of exceeding 16.5k - anyway you slice it - it compromises the intent of "Sport Quickie ". But as I said, the genie is out of the bottle. 424 has picked up since we began using the TT 40. Catch 22!

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       Post #: 54

Standard vs. Expert - 8/9/2002 1:01:05 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]... [COLOR=red] capable [/COLOR] of turning a stock 9 x 6 APC propeller [COLOR=red]at over [/COLOR] 16,500 rpm on the ground. [/QUOTE] I do not think there is any misinterpretation of on the ground. Even if, while technically you might be able to measure in-flight rpms, nobody would want to go there. But which term - [COLOR=red] capable[/COLOR] or [COLOR=red]at over [/COLOR] - don't you understand? Come on guys, let’s stop the quibbling here. The TT 40 is more than [COLOR=red]capable[/COLOR] of turning a stock 9 x 6 APC propeller [COLOR=red]at over [/COLOR] 16,500 rpm on the ground. Are you the experts you claim to be - or not? Every one else knows what the TT 40 is [COLOR=red]capable[/COLOR] of . Why the stone wall? I am not here to suggest we blackball the TT 40. The TT 40 has all seven of the attributes listed by vector. I do not know what the answer should be. But I do know that if you raise the rpm limit, that will only exacerbate [COLOR=green]speed creep [/COLOR] .

As for experts flying 424; if the experts (428 flyers) did not also enter 424, I do not think PGRC would continue to hold 424 events. There is just not enough 424 only flyers. But, if/when 424 is flown at the nats (and possibly for regional championships too) 424 should be restricted (to non 428/422 entrants).

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       Post #: 55

Standard vs. Expert - 8/9/2002 7:14:40 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		The problem with the welded muffler is that it can't be checked. Here in the east we had a couple of 428 racers (experts if you well) flying 424 with the guts removed. Engines were checked and they were disqualified. I know it has been said that the TT 40 actually unloads better with the baffle in. I am no expert so I couldn't say, but their times increased when the baffle was replaced.

About 424 being an entry level event. With the TT 40, times are already faster than F1s were when Glen Splicker introduced Q500 as an entry level event. As for 424 not belonging at the nats - every other event has "entry" level classes represented at the nats. Now tell me again why NMPRA is not elitist.

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       Post #: 56

Standard vs. Expert - 8/9/2002 8:46:41 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Just my opinion. [/QUOTE]
Barry, I like it. That (head shims to reduce rpm) was what I was looking for. Simple, easy and inexpensive. Solves the AMA legal problem and the [COLOR=seagreen]speed creep [/COLOR] problem (not to mention the ethical question). I guarantee that rpm would be an issue if 424 is run at the nats. Better to solve the dilemma before it erupted into a real 'hellabaloo'.

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       Post #: 57

Standard vs. Expert - 8/9/2002 6:46:32 PM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		If 424 were flown at the nats, it would be flown under AMA rules (strictly enforced). The composite airframe is a local requirement and not AMA. It is a non-issue since there is no measurable advantage. Good rule for local races but not required for a national event.

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       Post #: 58

Standard vs. Expert - 8/12/2002 11:47:26 PM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]17,000 maximum rpm's PEAKED on the ground. That would allow the TT Pro 40 users to be within the rules, if PEAK is the intent of the rule. [/QUOTE]
Not necessarily . And what about the TT 40s that exceed 17k? Its a slippery slope with no bottom. Hold the line or forget it . [COLOR=red]Once you start down there is no return.[/COLOR]
The answer is simple and cheap. Yes! AMA 424 is entry level racing - we are only talking AMA now so APRA and NEPRO can stay as they are - but we should expect NATS entrants to be able to shim (and tach) their engines. The most difficult part for novice racers will be obtaining the proper shims. You can't buy them at the city hobby shop. So we have them available at the nats and during processing hand out instructions explaining the rule and give a few shims to all who need them. Most will have shimmed their TT40 already (or any otherwise [COLOR=crimson]legal[/COLOR] engine) but will still accept the handout shims).

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       Post #: 59

Standard vs. Expert - 8/13/2002 4:36:14 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		You all sound like a bunch of school girls wining because the school might measure the length of their skirts. Arn't the winning engines of 428 and 422 checked at the nats? If a plane is obviously faster then the rest, isn't incumbent upon the CD to check that engine? I would hope the answer is yes. If not, then the many ex pylon racers that have told me they quit because they felt/believed other racers were modifying their engines were probably right. Racers are going to do whatever they think they can get away with (and why not!). That goes for novices as well as experts. Every suspect engine (ie. TT40) should be checked once. Preferably before the race. If it tachs over 16.5K then it doesn't race until it gets detuned. If it misses a round or two - thats the breaks. At the end, the top three and fast time should get rechecked (just as they would be checked that they are stock ). The airframes are checked before the race - why not suspect engines?

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       Post #: 60

Standard vs. Expert - 8/13/2002 6:36:40 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		Let's see! The closest thing to a skirt that I remember waring would be a hospital gown. They all seem to be about the same and not long enough.

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       Post #: 61

Standard vs. Expert - 8/14/2002 6:51:36 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]So what, the experienced guys are supposed to win. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that's the attitude. 17K + is OK then? How about 18K? Is [COLOR=red]19K [/COLOR] OK? Most of all, where is the integrity? If you all are trying to make sure 424 is NOT flown at the nats, I think you have succeeded. For all it's faults, the AMA will not (can not) allow willful disregard of the rules. (And if NMPRA has an once of integrity left, it won't either.) Change the AMA rule to 17K? (Better make that at least 17.5K.) It will take at least two years - lots of luck. But I am sure getting a rule change will be easier then enforcing the current rule. (And all the "experienced guys" won't have to worry about the new guy.) :

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       Post #: 62

Standard vs. Expert - 8/21/2002 8:50:59 PM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I hope that everyone understands that if 424 was to be run at the nats with the current wording, you could see Nelsons, Jetts (if they choose to produce a un-piped muffler) and composite airframes. Which to me says that if I was competing at a local level with my predator and TT40, I need to go buy the fast stuff to win. I don't want this to happen. It is supposed to be an entry level event without all of this other stuff (that is what 428 is for). [/QUOTE]

Everybody, please re-read the current AMA 424 rules. Several years ago, a NMPRA team spent more then a year "[COLOR=seagreen]unifying[/COLOR] " the the rules and that is what we have now . 424 has picked up since then. AMA can not make a list. (keep in mind that there is a two year rules cycle .) The predator and TT40 are as competitive as your abilities - against any other [COLOR=red]AMA legal [/COLOR] 424 plane/engine combination (bar none). Composite airframes have no advantage over a well crafted woodie. The single most effective restriction is the 16.5K rpm limit. Remove (or even modify it) and "Katey bar the door" - forget 424. Are the 424 rules perfect? Are the 428 rules perfect? Are any rules perfect? (Well maybe the ten commandants!) The current rules can support 424 at the nats and should be used just as they are. Just put enough shims in the head to preclude exceeding 16.5K (on the pinch). Don't weld your stock non-tuned muffler closed and make sure the stock carb is legal and use whatever .40 engine you desire. If you want to spend $300 dollars on an engine and $400 on a composite plane, fine with me. I am confident that my TT40 woodie (in the right hands ) will be just as competitive. Remember, we are talking about AMA Nationals - not local racing. 16.3.3.b. provide the rule variations that work well for local racing (and are AMA sanction-able) - thanks to the NMPRA team's efforts. Finally, if RCPRO has done nothing for you, then I guess you haven't been using this forum or any of the informational pages Don has authored. In the past year, Don through PylonWorld's web site has done more to promote pylon racing then any one else.

P.S. Mike, Are you saying that your wooden plane are not competitive against the composites?

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       Post #: 63

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 2:10:30 AM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		BV, I do not know what you are talking about. I have never denigrated the TT40. I think it is a great engine and a great buy. It just happens to be AMA 424 illegal out of the box . Now some racers have expressed to me that putting shims under the head would render them non stock and that is the only debatable point. But I tend to be liberal and say "no harm no foul". Make no mistake guys, if you want 424 at the 2003 nats , better accept the rules as they are. And if you "bag" the rpm limit (I don't believe it would get approved), it will kill 424 and eventually Q500.

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Regis 0o

(in reply to daven)