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Standard vs. Expert - 8/15/2002 1:03:39 AM   
SSAN



Posts: 440
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Queen Creek, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		PJ,

I got 17,400 RPM Peak on the ground for my TT Pro .40. Oh... Shhhhhh!!! Don't let anyone know.

Sam S.

_____________________________

SAM-RAI... The Ultimate WOOD Q-500!
www.Sam-RaiRacing.com

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 76

Regional thing ? - 8/14/2002 2:40:06 AM   
splatt



Posts: 651
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: splattsville, MN,
Status: offline 		I watched this thread with some interest because I love the competition that our version of sport quickie (424-26?) provides us at Grassfield.
The OS 46fx out of the box with no dinking around provides tight close racing.They go 120 MPH. No one has had an engine faliure in 5 years of using this motor. I've been beaten by 5 year old engines. I've beaten 2 month old engines. So up here in winterland were happy.
Seems people in other parts of the country have there own good reasons to use there brand of engines for what ever reason. Are west coast people coming to winterland to race 424? Haven't seen any. Am I going to Cal to race 424, doubt it. Seem to me that 424 is a regional thing. Let it go. Let's find a system that awards points on a regional basis and then add it up at years end.
I know this does not provide a answer to a NATS thing, but it seems that the engine issue is too polarized to come up with a instant answer, but keep trying. Were all watching

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 77

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 11:13:49 PM   
garys


 

Posts: 740
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Randy, or should I say "The Master"?

At least I can still say I've beaten you more often than not in head-to-head heats!

You've proven my thoughts. I thought that perhaps the reason your parents drove the motor-home back from the Nats and let you fly was because your head was to big to fit through the door...now you've proven me right!

I know that Southwest Airlines is charging "big" people for two seats on their flights.....did your airline charge you extra for your head and the extra oxygen you used?

I was wanting to join Team Kane, but not if your going to be on it!

GS

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 78

hmmm--- - 8/24/2002 3:47:46 AM   
garys


 

Posts: 740
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Interesting thread here.........

1. We have a discussion about 424/APRA/NEPRO/etc.
2. We have a big-headed National Chumpion.....
3. We have people arguing over Q500 designs.....

Here are my opinions...take them as you will....

1. I would like to see 424 flown at the Nats! I don't feel that the current 424 rules fit what we should have in an entry level class due to two reasons already mentioned in this thread. I don't think high $ composite airplanes should be allowed, and I don't agree with the 16,500 rpm rule for reasons already mentioned--under what conditions is the engine not to be "capable" of over 16,500 rpm's?

2. What's there to say? THE GUY HAS A REALLY BIG HEAD!!

3. These arguments should be kept private between the individuals involved. There isn't much of anything that can be done on a Q500 anymore that can be considered "original". Every airplane out there shares AT LEAST one major design feature (besides the dimensions in the rules) with EVERY other Q500 in existence!

Just my opinions.....right or wrong...

GS

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 79

Standard vs. Expert - 8/7/2002 9:28:06 PM   
CrashBevil


 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/3/2002
From: Hurst, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I'm so confused!!!
I am new to organized racing, having only raced in club events before this year. I just joined the NMPRA in an attempt to get into more regional racing and will race (at least this year) in 424. I understand the TT 40 is allowed (right?) and I actually like the engine. But my engine will easily run 17K+ on the ground with a 9X6 prop. Do I need to "detune" the engine to limit it to 16.5K before racing? Its no big deal if I do (real easy actually), I just need to know. The last thing I want to do is be percieved as a cheater because of a vague rule or misinterpretation. (Maybe this is the reason 424 isn't more popular.)

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 80

424 "unification" - 8/21/2002 7:37:19 AM   
CrashBevil


 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/3/2002
From: Hurst, TX, USA
Status: offline 		O.K. I have actively read every post in this forum and now I have to have my minute on the soapbox.
I am sure that this will annoy the poop out of many of you, but hey, thats what I am best at.

First of all, I would be interested in knowing how many of you actually fly 424? I am betting that most of you prefer 428.

I just started AMA racing after flying and winning our local clubs races every year. (I'm not trying to brag, I just took it more seriously and spent more time practicing). I wanted to race against equals and get my feet wet in 424 before moving up to 428. I have joined the NMPRA and am in the process of joining RCPRO. Now that I have, I am more confused than ever before about legal engines, etc.
As I understand it from the AMA rulebook, it is up to the hosting club to set engine rules in advance of the event to keep it even. Pick an RPM limit or a claiming rule or whatever it takes to keep the field level and commit.

If you want to encourage new racers and make 424 a national event, do what the local clubs have been doing and what the AMA says to do in the rules: When (if) AMA makes 424 national, have them post whatever engine limits they are going to enforce somewhere public when they make the announcement to race.

In my opinion, the 5 pages of posts in this thread will do little or nothing to unify 424 and will do a lot to drive new racers away from AMA races and back to local events.

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 81

Standard vs. Expert - 8/21/2002 8:02:15 AM   
CrashBevil


 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/3/2002
From: Hurst, TX, USA
Status: offline 		FWIW, Back when our club was running local races, we allowed the .46FX with tuned pipes (I like going FAST). I had my Predator clocked by FWPD at 182mph sustained. We were all running our 2.5 mile course in 1:31. Now I am switching to 424 rules and this thing seems SLOW. I am running the 424 short course (1.6mi) in 1:41. (That has nothing to do with anything, I know).

The problem with a 16K limit is that technology is catching up with the hobby. 5 years ago, a 16K .40 was unheard of outside of racing. In todays world, EVERY bearinged engine will turn 16K with a 9X6 prop. Porting is more efficient, glow plugs are better, bearings are smoother, etc. If you insist on an RPM limit, the limit needs to match the times. I still think that a $100 claiming rule is the best way to prevent hot engines.
As far as Newbies being beaten by the experienced pilots;
If the only practice that the newbie is doing is during the race, he will always lose. The guys that practice, WIN. I burn at least 1 gallon of fuel a month running laps with my caller. With a meet coming up at the end of Sept., you can raise that # to 2 gallons a month.
As my old trumpet teacher told me:
"Practice does not make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect."

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 82

Standard vs. Expert - 8/7/2002 6:16:33 AM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		That just about covers it Barry, good job. I would like to add a couple of things. The rule about bearings, gaskets, bolts, etc, being allowed, is not a new rule, or one that has to do with APRA only. It has always been that way, even in the AMA rule book. Page 112 in th current AMA rule book, says this is allowed, and is considered stock. No new news here.....OS, MVVS, Rossi, Webra, etc, were disallowed IN APRA, only because of "SPEED & COST". Yes the TT's are less quality, but also "SLOWER & CHEAPER". The last Thunder Tiger Pro 40 I bought a couple of months ago cost me $65. A lot cheaper than the $120 / $160 other higher quality engines, plus they are faster, and some impossible to get. Personally, I have a lot of respect for the Thunder Tiger Pro 40's, mine have all ran good, and I have "NEVER" been able to wear one out, in the last ten years.......Remember the Golden Rule......Keep the event cheap, simple, & fun, and try to keep the equipment equal in APRA / 424....Thats the secret to it's success.....

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 83

Standard vs. Expert - 8/7/2002 9:46:44 AM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		A Thunder Tiger Pro 40 is not the only engine allowed in APRA. There are other engines on the list, Super Tiger GS 40, etc. The TT Pro 40 is a AMA 424 legal engine, along with others.......Read page 123 prargraph 16.3.3 424 Special provisions. Looks like APRA rules, down to the letter.......In fact, read the AMA rule book.........The way an engine makes it on the APRA engine list, is by extensive testing. I know because Jim Allen & I were the APRA engine committee, at one time, and Jim & I tested lots of engines, and not just one of each, 5-10 of each as I remember. We tested them with a APC 9-6, & a unload prop. If the engine turned both of these props, at to high of an RPM, they were not allowed, plus they had to retail, for $100 or less. These two props are in Jim Allens possesion, and stored in a neat little box, for consistancy. Things may have changed since I was involved in the testing, but that was the basis. Nobody wanted any particular engine to monopolise, but the TT Pro 40 was the engine of choice on the list.....This too is old news, but every three, or four years, the new guys start asking these same questions. This the third, or fourth time we have told this same story, but I don't mind.....What are use old farts for ?

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 84

Standard vs. Expert - 8/7/2002 7:20:20 PM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		Dan is "NOT" an old fart......... Yes the Thunder tiger Pro 40 is legal in 424, and so are a lot of other faster, and more expensive engines. In AMA 424, the only criteria, is the 16,500 RPM range. This number is a little bogus on the start line in my opinion. There are some high dollar engines that might peak out at over 19 K, that like to be backed off to the 16,500 RPM number. I have seen some guys throttle back, & even have a switch on the TX set, to attain the 16,500. The honest guy that has a lesser timed, smaller venturied engine, that runs best backed off 300 RPM to 16,500 suffers. But as it is, they check RPM on the line, ready for the flag.........I think peak RPM should be considered......

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 85

Standard vs. Expert - 8/8/2002 2:22:04 AM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		Sorry Dan....You are too young for the old fart club !!.....The newest AMA rule book, on page 122, paragraph 16.3 Tells all about 424: Sport Quickie. Read that whole section on 424. It goes on to say on page 123 paragraph 16.3.3 (424 Special Provisions, section B) Quote....."The engune rules specified below, have been used successfully on a local basis to limit the cost or power output of engines used in this event".......It says just to note the changes in your sanction, and, or publicity.....It practically spells out, word for word, the APRA rules, no kidding ! Read it. Looks like APRA rules, have AMA's blessings already, minus the nine lap rule.......About the nine lap rule.....The only reason for the nine lap rule, was to allow a more advanced pilot to be able to fly Pylon, without being forced to go faster, and spend more money for a Nelson / Jet engine, and still not be able to beat up on the new, 424 pilots. Barry & Bill have mentioned that experienced pilot do not belong in 424 / APRA, and should be forced to move up to 428. I think this is wrong. There are lots of guys that have improved, only a little, gotten older, don't have the money, sight, physical ability, talent, & most of all desire to fly or buy a Nelson / Jet & fly 428. Some guys just don't have the competitive heart it takes to go fast, and travel like some of us. I don't think it is a good idea, to shut them out. I agree not to let them beat up on the new ones. I have been thinking a two lap handicap between novice & expert will work better. It has been a little too easy to break out. There are no nine lappers left at most races.....The perfect setup, would be to fly two seperate classes, 424 expert, & 424 novice, but there is just not enough time in a race day, for this to happen....... keep it FUN, SIMPLE & CHEAP

< Message edited by MDP -- Aug 7 2002 9:27PM >

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 86

Standard vs. Expert - 8/8/2002 3:08:52 AM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		When I first moved to Denver a while back, they were running two pole races, and pretty much APRA rules. They told me they weren't worried much about the engines, as long as they tached only 16,500 on the line. I said what about engines that we not stock, which I knew there were a couple, and they said as long as it won't does not turn over 16,500 on the line they didn't care. I tried to explain that the higher the timing, the bigger the carb bore, the more the muffler stinger was bored out, the more you would have to back off the needle, to keep it from going lean in the air. They said they didn't care if the engine was stock or not, that the 16,500 number would take care of it, and that a modified motor could not run that good at that RPM......I went home, and modified a Thunder Tiger Pro 40, and left nothing to the imagination. It turned a APC 9-6 prop, with 15% Power Master fuel at 19,100 RPM peaked. In order for it to run 10 laps without going lean, I had to set it on the line at 15,800. It had no competition, and at the next race, they changed the rule....No modified engines, and the top three would be torn down. The next few races. we tore down the engines, and caught a couple blatant reworked engine projects, but that was the end of that. From then on, no modified engines, 16,500 max RPM on the line ( was checked a lot), and a engine list......No more problems.....PS.. I was asked not to use the engine again.....I can't remember for sure, but I think I sold it to a fella named Bill Vargas on the west coast..he he.... ( that was lie "Billy V." )

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 87

Standard vs. Expert - 8/8/2002 9:19:37 AM   
MDP


 

Posts: 116
Joined: 2/12/2002
From: Phoenix, OR, USA
Status: offline 		HI LEFTY !............YEP !!

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 88

Standard vs. Expert - 8/8/2002 9:11:19 PM   
MDP