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Standard vs. Expert - 8/21/2002 11:28:42 PM   
R.Bridge


 

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"Composite airframes have no advantage over a well crafted woodie."


- Man, I sure need to start spending my money elsewhere. I'm sure that any "woodie" would certainly be less money than these composite planes right?

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 101

Standard vs. Expert - 8/21/2002 11:43:29 PM   
R.Bridge


 

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Obviously put Kane on it. He seems to have the drive to get this going and get it going NOW. He is very familiar with the voting process and his opinion should be heard on all issues concerning this matter.

You my help with testing- let me know!

1. Make your engine list...
2. OUTLAW composite planes... all the composite manufactures would agree I'm sure.

Done deal - and bag the RPM limit thing. Someone seems to have a hot engine, we will tear him down and look at it...

For the Nationals - you need Mike Condon to go to one matrix, and bag the split matrix thing..

RB

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 102

Standard vs. Expert - 8/21/2002 11:51:32 PM   
R.Bridge


 

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Good idea Don..... I just called him !

RB


OH - there is now lower quality VORTEX, the quality, precision and strenght is what makes it so fast..

That's my whole point... Even my the wood version Vortex couldn't keep up with the composite.. must be some advantage.. I'd get smoked all day long with a wood quickie...

RB

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 103

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 1:17:32 AM   
R.Bridge


 

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The sponsor's pockets are only so deep baby!! lol

RB

You should totally be the one to spearhead this 424 thing. I'd help in any way I could too...

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 104

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 2:30:09 AM   
R.Bridge


 

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Okay then... keep the RPM rule to avoid killing Q500 racing. Maybe change it to 17K and then it would be more appropriate for the TT40. I suppose the RPM limit was put in place to keep racers from altering the motor, right? I would assume that it is hard to govern the RPM limit anyway, since I've never seen anyone get checked before or after a heat race?

I would think that it wouldn't be too hard to have a 424 committee settle on an approved engine list that is updated and evaluated every year??

RB

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 105

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 2:49:38 AM   
R.Bridge


 

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Good point BV. Sounds like we could just update the old engine list (keeping the TT40 - only because it seems to be liked and used by most all) and update the RPM limit rule to better suit all the engines... problem solved?

Somebody better buddy up with Mike Condon to see if he will adjust the way the Nats is run to accomodate another class during the week....

RB

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 106

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 3:02:53 AM   
R.Bridge


 

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maybe a box of cigars......he went through a few smokes at the Nats this year..

RB

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       Post #: 107

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 8:34:22 PM   
R.Bridge


 

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Good point Dan, "peaked" or "pinched" ... I would think that the 424 fliers would want that defined? Regis? shouldn't that part of the rule be defined?

Thanks Dan for the "props"..........BTW - I just sent my last months engine bill to you, I'm a little short this month and being one of my fellow TeamJR boys, I'm sure you help me out....lol

Oh, Regis is right when he says - "a lot of us have very bad tacks" - spend the money in the right areas.. I know he was being sarcastic, but he is actually right.

How do I get on Team Kane?!? I want to rule the pylon world too you know.... 10 Nationals trophies in 3 years just isn't enough!


The "Master"
RB

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 108

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 11:34:47 PM   
R.Bridge


 

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You guys are killing me. As far as Southwest was concerned, my sponsor puts me first class (more head room, and personal oxygen tank)..lol... and, Gary you always beat me, certainly not going to argue that. lol..........

Team Kane........that just sounds good doesn't it??

Although sounds like the Team Manager is a little demanding on the quantity of Vortex's.....


I'm out of here........late
RB

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 109

Standard vs. Expert - 8/23/2002 8:57:19 PM   
R.Bridge


 

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Dan, let's just put together a proposal and reword that sentence so it clearly defines "maximum/peaked" rpm, and toss that "capable" thing.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..

RB

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 110

Standard vs. Expert - 8/24/2002 2:40:56 AM   
R.Bridge


 

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We WILL have this rule re-written so that there is no misunderstanding or grey areas. It may take some time and a few rough drafts, but it seems fairly obvious that the perception of the rule is unclear. If even two people read the rule differently and can't agree on what the rule is saying, then it is in need of some touching up....

Got to go race in Medford Or., in my efforts to support some much needed West Coast racing...

Dan, I'll be in touch and will hopefully have something for you to review mid next week....

later,
Randy

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 111

424 at the NATS - 8/9/2002 1:52:25 AM   
Pete Bergstrom


 

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A little bit of research into the history of "Beginner - Novice" level events that are eventually allowed to run at the NATS will show that what eventually happens is that we end up having to invent yet another "Beginner - Novice" event. This was true from Navy Carrier in CL with "Profile Carrier", Slow Rat in CL Racing, 428 in Pylon Racing. (These are only three that come to mind off the top of my head!)

Originally the intent of Q500 was to allow the novice racer to learn to race and provide a fun event for experienced racers. Left alone, this is a laudable goal. When a National Championship is at stake, everyone enters and the entire event grows to the point that the original intent of "teaching new people to race" has been lost. Now 428 is an event that provides equal challenge and speed to what should arguably be our premier event, QM40 and draws the best pilots in the nation, expensive airframes, and expensive motors. No where would anyone have thought that Q500 would have gotten this far, and it never had until it became a "NATS" event.


By the look of the entries at this years NATS, the existing grass roots 424 programs are doing a great job of feeding pilots into the 428/422 racing program. I believe that 424 needs to be a grass roots event (see my post under "426 - Intermediate Q500?" and that is where it will do the best for us all overall. We don't need another event with "Speed Creep" - (what is that anyhow, this is racing!) nor do we want "Dollar creep" - or "run" - as the case may be. We will do nothing but chase away ptoential pilots and the cry for a "true" beginners event will come forth from the ranks once again! I have heard this before and I would like to stop from having to hear it again.

Regarding Racing Classes in General

There are only two ways to differentiate between events. Equipment or Pilot Skill. It is difficult to use them in combination because as soon as you move up a skilled pilot to the point that his wallet breaks, you have lost a racer totally. When the only difference between events is in equipment, then the pilots that love to race will figure out how to make the new equipment work just a little bit better and go have fun racing the new event in addition to their old event. The only true way to differentiate bewteen classes is by pilot skill with no restrictions on equipment other than the existing rules. This works well in the APRA with their 9 lap rules, etc. Then the improving pilot does not have to make a quantum leap in technology or expense to compete in the next class. He most likely already has the equipment or is in need of retiring worn out equipment.

Generally pilots move up in category through peer pressure. This can only be applied from the local racers that know the pilots in question. Once again, a grass roots function.

In conclusion I believe we should let each area promote its own grass roots racing program as their pilots. clubs, money and interest permits. This has been working better in the past few years and will take time to take hold. Remember, the existing situation did not happen overnight, but occured over a 7-10 year period. We need to allow ourselves the time to grow and mature at these events. Maybe we can get more clubs on the East coast if we are willing to put the work into the events we already have. We cannot legislate participation. Every time we try to do this we end up with lower participation.

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 112

Neophyte Question on Rules - 8/21/2002 7:21:29 PM   
MikeyD


 

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Danny

There have been allot of people very passionate on this subject. I too would like to see a beginner class at the NAT's, but I agree with you on the current rules as they are written.

Here's my neophyte ??, can't a proposal or addendum be submitted to tighten the wording on the current rules. Engines and the type of airframe seem to be the pivot point of this becoming a NAT's event.

1. How long does an approval process take. (Votes Etc..)

2. If a proposal was done today and passed, would it be eligible for next years Nat's? (Condon would include this wouldn't he?)

3. Could this be considered an Urgent proposal.

Thanks
DeNeve

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 113

Standard vs. Expert - 8/22/2002 5:33:19 PM   
MikeyD


 

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All this talk is great, but unless someone gets approval from Mike C. it will never happen. The fact is, Mike has worked his butt off the past few years putting this thing together. I know he stated earlier that there just wasn't time to get it done, and I kinda agree with him. We were blessed with pretty good weather this year. It only takes one bad weather day to throw the whole schedule off.

For those of us that have traveled to fly both 428 and 422, we are already spending 5-6 days to get in a maximum of 30-35 minutes each of actual flight time. And thats considering you make the finals in both classes. Although I agree 424 should be flown at the nats, who is willing to step up, organize, and run this class. In my opinion, it should not interfere with the current schedule, as I truely don't believe there is enough wiggle room to get it done (even with trolleys) under the current hectic schedule.


This year at the Nat's there was nothing scheduled Friday and Saturday? Not to say that would be the same for next year, but that should address the wiggle room ??


Obviously put Kane on it. He seems to have the drive to get this going and get it going NOW. He is very familiar with the voting process and his opinion should be heard on all issues concerning this matter.

RB



I'm with Randy on this. Likewise if I can help let me know


Mike DeNeve

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 114