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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> IMAC >> RE: IMAC just too expensive
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RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/16/2005 11:55:40 PM   
ramrod25


 

Posts: 60
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Fort Towson, OK, USA
Status: offline 		I'd like to throw in my nickle here (.02 doesn't get you much these days) - and maybe a nickle won't either

I am a Basic Pilot and here is the issue the way I see it. Let's say I'm going to spend a couple of hundred bucks and travel to a contest. The problem is, I don't know if I'll be flying my $800 airplane against a $6000 airplane. It's entirely possible some dude can show up with a 40% plus size plane and want to fly Basic. Can somebody honestly tell me we are starting out with any kind of level playing field here??? That is the issue. I've got two strikes against me: 1. The wind is going to bounce my plane all over the place 2. Judges Bias. (Sorry, but it seems to exist).

Now I'm not saying IMAC is broke and in need of major changes - I'm not smart enough to know that - but I do think that with some level of thought and consideration it can be improved.

I'm not an expert at F3A pattern by any means, but it appears to me that $2000 - $2500 will get you a really good engine/airplane combination and you can go pretty far in F3A before the engine/airplane becomes the limiting factor. How far can you go in IMAC before the airplane is the limiting factor?? Well, you can be limited out in Basic pretty quick when you have to fly against 40% aircraft on a day with 20 mph winds.

I want someone to just tell me what is wrong with this:

Basic = .90 2 cycle or 1.20 4 cycle (non-turbocharged) engines ((Upper engine size limits for each class))

Sportsman = 52 cc engine limit

Intermediate = 110 cc engine limit

Advanced and Unlimited - No engine Limit

Put them in any plane you want to - no limit on airframes. (Other than AMA weight limits I guess)

So - now when I spend my 200-300 bucks and travel 300 miles to a contest - I know WHAT I'm flying against.

Doesn't this give us a logical progression as we become better pilots we move to the next level of aircraft. Oh - and if I want to - I can fly my Basic plane in Sportsman or Intermediate - - you can always move up to the next class, but you can never move down (No Sportsman class aircraft in Basic).

Think of it this way:

I can put together a really good Basic airplane for less than $1000.00. I can get a nice Extra ARF and a good 1.20 4 stroke and inexpensive servos for that price.

Sportsman - Now you move up to about a $1500-1800 airplane.

Intermediate - Probably in the $2500 - $3000 range

Advanced and Unlimited - Break the bank - If you can put together a 78% Sukhoi that meets all the other rules - have at it.

I just absolutely don't see what's wrong with some structure like this. If you are good enough - start out in Sportsman or Intermediate - you don't have to start in Basic.

Some say - "Well, now you'll have to buy two or three airplanes to move up in the classes." I'd rather that be the cost of fairness than the mis-match we now have in aircraft.

At least this way - when we all travel (which is getting more and more expensive) to a contest - we will know that we are "in the competition".

OK - that's all you get for a nickle.



< Message edited by ramrod25 -- 3/16/2005 11:58:46 PM >

_____________________________

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Rodney Wren

(in reply to Falcon_az)
       Post #: 76

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 12:48:44 AM   
v-snap



Posts: 949
Joined: 10/29/2002
From: brownsburg, IN, USA
Status: offline 		I don't know, a bigger airplane makes bigger mistakes... If your flying basic I wouldn't let this be a problem as it is a stepping stone to the next level, flying the lesser of aircraft builds a better pilot..
I know when i was active in full scale aerobatics there were a lot of pilots who still thought that by learning on a clipped cub or citabria made a much better pilot...
Gives you one more advantage, beat em with the lesser aircraft at first then whip em with a better one later...

I will admit it would be a little discouraging to go up against the bigger hardware when your starting out.

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(in reply to ramrod25)
       Post #: 77

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 4:46:38 AM   
Flyfalcons



Posts: 6134
Joined: 7/27/2002
From: Bonney Lake, WA, USA
Status: offline 		I was very discouraged when I was an IMAC newbie showing up at my first big contest with my 40 size Extra and finding a 40% Extra in Basic. However, I had practiced and flew better lines than anyone in my class and came away with the win. It is intimidating to find larger planes in your class but put that fact aside and fly for yourself and you will do well.

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Ryan Winslow

Cub flying - the new EXTREME SPORT!!! (evarrr)

(in reply to v-snap)
       Post #: 78

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 4:58:16 AM   
excelpoint



Posts: 53
Joined: 7/10/2004
From: , AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		flyfalcons is right. Its not what size plane your flying but how you are flying it that counts.Sure a heavier aircraft will handle windier conditions better but if the guy flying it cant fly wind adjusted lines he is on the back foot already.over here in Australia we have quite a few guys flying Great Planes Pattys and world models extras a lot of the time better then the guys with the bigger stuff,wind or no wind. You are not a disadvantage with a smaller plane just practise heaps in all wind conditions and you will soon start to out score guys with bigger aircraft. Sometimes a bigger aircraft is a disadvantage because it gives you a false sense of security in believing it will fly better on its own or you have to practise less.JMO

(in reply to Flyfalcons)
       Post #: 79

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 5:26:52 AM   
SBR_RV



Posts: 839
Joined: 8/23/2003
From: mildura, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		you could try a 1.40 - 1.60 size two stroke model?

(in reply to rjbranchii)
       Post #: 80

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 2:19:13 PM   
ramrod25


 

Posts: 60
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Fort Towson, OK, USA
Status: offline 		What you have all said is that the size of the airplane is not an issue. Both pilots walk to the flight line and are competing on an absolutely equal basis. The ONLY thing that seperates who will win or lose is what our thumbs do on the sticks. You are saying that a 40% airplane has NO advantage over a .40 size airplane. You have said that the judges are absolutely unbiased toward the smaller aircraft.

So if everything is equal, I can put my new Wildhare Extra 260 (beautiful airplane by the way) with a BME 102 engine in it - go fly Basic and with a straight face tell the guy that shows up with a .40 size plane that we are competing on an absolutely equal basis. That the ONLY thing that will decide the competition is our skill.





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Rodney Wren

(in reply to SBR_RV)
       Post #: 81

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 2:35:49 PM   
tommy s


 

Posts: 1206
Joined: 1/14/2004
From: houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Hey guys,
It's the same in every kind of competition, flying or whatever sport you pick. There
are always people competing who can afford and who have the best of everything and
there are sponsored competitors who have their pick of anything they want. You just
have to deal with it and enjoy the competition. When I started flying pattern I learned
quickly even in Sportsman I would be competing against full 2 meter ships with YS 4-strokes
and even electric pattern ships. Just makes it more fun , and think how good you'll feel
when you do good. Practice, practice, practice.

tommy s

(in reply to ramrod25)
       Post #: 82

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 3:02:09 PM   
BasinBum



Posts: 5717
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Hawthorne, CA, USA
Status: offline 		This thread has gone from IMAC is too expensive to what plane to fly in the Basic class. IMAC is too expensive, the whole hobby is too expensive but that's a choice you make. I don't think anyone needs to defend the cost associated with flying planes, it's a personal decision.

As for competing against a large plane with your .40 size....in the Basic class you shouldn't worry about your competition and just compete against yourself. Basic is for learning how to fly lines and other BASIC fundementals so you can move up to where you'll need a bigger (more expensive) plane anyway.

(in reply to tommy s)
       Post #: 83

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 3:52:24 PM   
Bill_Higgins



Posts: 245
Joined: 12/13/2002
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BasinBum


As for competing against a large plane with your .40 size....in the Basic class you shouldn't worry about your competition and just compete against yourself.


This really is the best practice for ALL classes. Showing up at a contest with the intention of "Winning" or "Beating" some other pilot defeats the whole purpose. The Way YOU feel at the end of the flight or contest is the only measure that should count. Not what gets put down on paper or engraved on some plaque. When you have the ability to do this......you'll never care about what the other guy is flying or how large or small his aircraft is......because it wont matter.


-Bill



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Bill Higgins

(in reply to BasinBum)
       Post #: 84

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 4:52:46 PM   
zx32tt


 

Posts: 467
Joined: 5/5/2002
From: Locust, NC, USA
Status: offline 		I think you need to think about why you are flying IMAC. If it is to be a better pilot and better at precision manuvers, the size and expense of the plane have little to do with it. You will miss out on a lot of the experience if you only have a "Win at all cost" attitude. Nobody wins because their plane was bigger or more expensive. They won because they were a best pilot.
Z

(in reply to Bill_Higgins)
       Post #: 85

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 5:18:58 PM   
ramrod25


 

Posts: 60
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Fort Towson, OK, USA
Status: offline 		aOK - I GIVE Well almost -

I have just one more question - and then I'm outta here - I gotta practice so I can get out of Basic

We all know that that Mr. Higgins is truly one of the most gifted pilots in the whole country. There is no doubt that he is in the top 1/2 of 1% of our pilot community.
And so I do ask this question with a tremendous amount of respect for his accomplishments.

But Mr Higgins - would you be willing to go to the Nationals this year and just take an Extreme Flight 87" Yak or a Wildhare 84" Extra and leave your big planes at home?
Seriously - would you feel as if you were at any disadvantage at all?

OK - that's all for me - like everyone else has said - maybe we are getting too serious in trying to defend our various points of view. I am in this sport for fun and fellowship and if I ever won a trophy - well that's just gravy on the plate.




< Message edited by ramrod25 -- 3/17/2005 5:36:27 PM >

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Regards
Rodney Wren

(in reply to zx32tt)
       Post #: 86

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 5:19:55 PM   
John Murdoch



Posts: 1710
Joined: 6/13/2002
From: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Status: offline 		I feel you all are right when it comes to your flying skills/abilities vs. what you are flying. However, I also know that when you're just starting or have advanced at least to the Sportsman Class (and even probably beyond that), that there is a definate intimidation factor. It IS all relative when you put your plane on the flight line, and that's only natural. However, if it's the intimidation factor you're having problems with, I would suggest that people just starting out, find a well qualified advanced or unlimited pilot to fly your airplane in the sequence you're flying. There's where the intimidation factor should come in. Set a goal for yourself to fly your sequence as well as the qualified pilot flew it, with your airplane. Agreed.. fly against yourself every time you get in the air. Fly it as well as the qualified pilot flew it and the intimidation/insecurity factor will certainly be greatly reduced.

When you're satisified that your individual skill level can't be improved with the plane you are flying, then is when you should consider the decision to invest into a bigger, not necessarily better airplane.

IMAC can be as inexpensive or as expensive as YOU choose it to be. You are the only one that sets your limits.


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~Growing Up Is Optional~

(in reply to zx32tt)
       Post #: 87

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 5:48:24 PM   
Bill_Higgins



Posts: 245
Joined: 12/13/2002
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ramrod25

But Mr Higgins - would you be willing to go to the Nationals this year and just take your new Extreme Flight 87" Yak and leave your big planes at home?
Seriously - would you feel as if you were at any disadvantage at all?



Wow.....top 1/2 of 1% !!!! That's WAY generous, but thanks so much for the kind words !! :-)

It's funny you should mention that Ramrod !! I was just talking about it with some friends, and had mentioned that I'd like to pull it out (the EF 87" Yak) at a contest and fly it as my primary. So would I ?? Sure..why not ??. My good friend George Hicks (who I used to fly with regularly until he moved to Savanah) myself and another good Friend , Jerry Dellinger Jr., all went to the IMAC Nats in 1999 in Enid Oklahoma with Midwest Caps (27%). In Sportsman that year I beleive there were 25 or so pilots, and well over 2/3 of them were either 35% or 40% aircraft. George finished 2nd I finshed 4th and Jerry Was 5th. As many will remember, the wind was quite strong that year as well in Enid, so were we at a dis-advantage.....who knows.....I dont really remeber thinking about much other than flying to the best of my ability.....I was scared to death to be truthful !! Then in 2002 George finished 3rd in unlimited with a 35% Radiocraft Extra against a field that was almost Totally 40% aircraft. If I had to rank the size of the aircraft as an importance factor it would be far below burning fuel (practicing) and knowing how to setup your aircraft.

I'll try to make an effort to remember to fly the EF yak at a contest this year, and let you know how it goes. I think it'll be fun !!! I dont really feel like I'll be at a dis-advantage though...but again....I try not to think about anything other than doing the very best that I can and having fun doing it.

-Bill




< Message edited by Bill_Higgins -- 3/17/2005 5:51:41 PM >


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Bill Higgins

(in reply to ramrod25)
       Post #: 88

RE: IMAC just too expensive - 3/17/2005 6:22:04 PM   
BasinBum



Posts: 5717
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Hawthorne, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Asking if he'd fly a smaller plane negates the fact that he has done everything else such as practice and set up his plane. All things being equal the edge goes to the bigger plane but if you are not as good or don't have your plane set up as well bigger don't mean better.

If you can tell us that the ONLY thing holding you back is the size of the plane than it is a valid arguement otherwise it's just an excuse. At the end of the day don't worry what everyone else is flying because that's out of your control. Just concern yourself with what you can control such as your practice regime and set up. A good lesson for competition as well as life in general.

(in reply to Bill_Higgins)