RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........  
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/1/2005 5:04:39 PM   
J_R


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbigg

what's the real deal with the AMA's insurance? i heard that if you have a claim you have to exhaust your home owners insurance first. is this true?

The primary (pun intended) value of the insurance provided by the AMA is for the landlord, where the policy is primary, and for the club, where it is also primary unless the club has other insurance. For an individual the AMA policy is excess, meaning homeowners, renters, or any other insurance comes first.

Most clubs would have a difficult time in obtaining coverage for the landlord and many clubs would not exist without the coverage provided by the AMA.

(in reply to mrbigg)
       Post #: 26

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/1/2005 6:30:10 PM   
PilotFighter



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I live in Houston. The freeways here are loaded with huge SUV's. $58 is a tank of gas to a Houstonian. $58 too much for AMA membership ? Nope. They just don't have the time to drive out to BFE where the AMA club is rumored to be. It is EASIER for Mom to buy Sonny a Parkflyer. And that is what Sonny wants. People think RC is for kids. Most have never seen an AMA club nor have they seen adults flying RC.

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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/1/2005 9:42:22 PM   
Live Wire


 

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I didn't think any one lived in the real world any more. Buy a park flyer and have a free baby sitter if you don't get caught neglecting your "well". Its easyer dumping them in the park and coming back later. You can not blame the kid's it's the parents, or parent that is the blame. Living in the fast lane and not having time for a real LIFE.



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       Post #: 28

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 3:38:03 AM   
tpes


 

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Horrace, lighten up a little. This is a fun hobby where people gather to fly model airplanes, have a good time, and swap lies about how radio interferance was the reason their plane crashed. In my comments to Steve at AMA I was only repeating what I hear while being on the front lines in a hobby shop that sells R/C. My store is a full line toy and hobby store with less then 10% of my business being R/C aircraft, yet that does not decrease my interest in having the new pilot enjoy his new aircraft as I am sure you enjoy your aircraft. We support the AMA in the store, but the AMA has to make its presence better know. We receive applications from the AMA each year, yet to the best of my knowledge there is no mention for a trial membership on that application. My quess would be that if the AMA members were polled about a trial memnership, less then 50% would have ever heard of it. We tell the new full function pilots that they need AMA for the insurance to fly at Scobee. Like it or not, that is the only reason for AMA at Scobee, insurance. Over 30 years ago I was on the BOD of MSCRCC (Manned Spacecraft Center Radio Control Club) and we were fighting Harris County for a field that far back, but the county was concerned about injury at a field and wanted to make sure that anyone that flew at a county field was covered by insurance, thus the AMA (insurance). Horrace FYI, lets hope you never have to rely on that insurance, but that another topic. Let's face it these little electric planes that hit the marketplace a couple of years ago are here to stay, at least for the short term and maybe longer. We need a way to accomadate these folks, not run them off.
Ed Dupaquier

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 29

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 4:37:40 AM   
tpes


 

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J R, you can quote chapter and verse all day long, but the truth be known, to 90% of the R/C fliers the AMA is only a necessary evil for the INSURANCE that allows them to fly at the flying field. Question? Would you be in the AMA today if it was not a requirement to fly at your local flying field? And if yes, why? Please tell me what the AMA has done specifically to improve your enjoyment of the hobby? They got us more frequencies back in the 90's making all of our equipment obsolete, that was a big help. Actually it was because it allows more people to fly at one time, but of course when was the last time you saw 40 airplanes in the air at the same time. Don't tell me a magazine, Kalmbach Publications and Carstens Publications seem to be doing a great job without the AMA. Sorry J R, it's the INSURANCE.
Ed Dupaquier

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 30

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 5:13:21 AM   
horace315



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why cant the fields be insured and any pilot that comes to a field would come under ama insurance,that would eliminate a lot of problems?

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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 7:32:17 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

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Horace, the answer to that is simple but hidden. Insurance of all kinds is a numbers game. How many folks do we spread the liability across, and how much liabilit ys it. How many folks are being insured? Besides, AMA is not JUST insurance but this is not the place to rant about that.

However, a couple of you gave me an idea. I will use some quotes and try to provide attribution.
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch

Like stated in the article, being an instructor is a long, hard, usually uncompensated job. I've trained for several years, it's usually rewarding but sometimes will make you pull your hair out, lol. Our club 'sponsor's the official club training people (I'm not currently one). They give them free membership. The club recognizes that #1, a properly trained person will most likely not injure themselves or others if they are trained how to operate the aircraft properly and 2, that they will learn much quicker and have more enjoyment from the hobby with proper help. Where I think the ama falls short is that they should 'sponsor' club trainers as well. Why not give official club trainers free ama membership. It would help promote the hobby, encourage safety thru proper training, (isn't that what everyone is going nuts about right now) and bring more people into the hobby as more people would be willing/encouraged to being a trainer. The ama wouldn't be loosing anything as more people would surely join as a result!!!! It would also show appreciation for the trainer personnel, many who give there time, drive long distances to meet with the trainee all with the expenses coming out of their pocket as they enjoy the hobby!!!!



THIS is the place for the rant. The AMA is not insurance, but it is difficult to explain to a new flyer exactly what all the benefits are in language he understands. This is only one of the reasons we are loosing the electric crowd. In reading Jon's post a couple thoughts bubbled up and struck me as important. We cannot impact flying safety if we are not involved in the training portion of the hobby. That is a given, and that is the second place where we are missing the shots at the park flyers. It occurred to me that we might be able to attract more new AMA members if they were offered a serious discount for the first year only if they participated through a registered AMA instructor. We could offer the AMA instructor the same 'convert 3 and fly free' deal at the same time. That way EVERYONE wins. The local clubs have a better shot at the new growth, the AMA has a better shot at the new growth, the instructor has a shot a free membership for doing what most of us enjoy any way, and the newbie gets some serious safety training for less dollars. To me THAT is what the AMA is all about, helping safety and having fun.

Why do I think this is such an important idea? Simple and someone else already said it:

"Another point that needs to be remembered is that although they may not want to pay $58 to fly a $149 model they have the same potential to cause damage and more important, negitave public opinion as those flying multi thousand dollar planes.

The untrained park flyer can destroy what little image we (the AMA and the hobby) have, so we must do something about it. Providing an effective alternative is worth while, even if it cuts into funds budgeted for other white elephants.

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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 10:50:19 AM   
fliers1



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What is missing in the mix is the MULTIBILLION DOLLAR RC industry. I mean, AMA must have some kind of influence with the RC industry. It has been just in the last couple of years that the RC industry has invested money for TV ads, albeit limited to cable and satelilte stations.

They seem to have no problem paying $4500 per month x 12 for full page color ads and in several different magazines, so why not pay clubs along or instead to promote related products? Think about it. Even if most if not all industry members dropped one full page color ad in just one magazine and gave that money to all AMA clubs...well, do the math. The only problem would be that the industry would expect the clubs they are paying to produce. There then lies the rub. What could clubs do to make the industry happy?

CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

< Message edited by fliers1 -- 1/2/2005 10:54:29 AM >


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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 11:07:30 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

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Because it is outside their 'vision'

Because this whole idea of growth and service to the hobby shown by effective safety training is outside the 'vision' of the AMA.

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Jim Branaum AMA 1428

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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 2:03:18 PM   
mrbigg



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my club requires the ama for the insurance. with club dues and the ama, it's hitting close to a hundred bucks. now when you renew your membership you have to give them a copy of your ama card. this year i'm debating about not renewing either one. i have a lot of building to do this year and if i can find time to fly, i'll go hit the blacktop out in the country with my .40 size planes. a hundred bucks isn't much, but i have to scrape all i can for this hobby(married with children), plus i don't have any creditcards.

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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 2:58:07 PM   
emailbanter



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I am re-posting a story I told a few days ago and think it's appropriate for this area as well. As an Insurance Claims Manager I constantly see what plaintiff's and their attorney's are capable of when they file suit against people (like you) for bodily injuries arising out of accidents. They are after money, YOUR money and they will drag you into court costing thousands to defend. Is your insurance coverage up to the task?

If you think your homeowners will cover an injury to another and your okay with risking what you have earned and will earn in the future, by all means, don't join AMA. Even if your home owners insurance will pay for injuries arising out of the operation of your RC plane, it will only do so at a set limit, usually a very LOW limit. Thinking you will never cause either bodily injury or property damage while operating your plane is irresponsible. Joining the AMA may not be the answer for you but just make sure you have some form of liabiity insurance that WILL cover you if someone does take it into their minds to file suit. Time and again, I see plaintiff's suing for the slightest scarring, emotional distress, and in some cases real injury.

$58 dollars for piece of mind? I say it's worth it. At least I know there's enough coverage if I damage someone's car or cause property damage and in the back of my mind, know I am also protected if I seriously injury someone at the field. Can anyone who is against securing the right kind of personal liability insurance tell me why they insure their car but not their RC airplane activity?

For those of you who don't have AMA, I'm curious whether you have any type of insurance other than your homeowners and what your plans are if you either cause damage or bodily injury?

Well, here's my post and I suppose there will always be someone out there who is going to learn their lesson the hard way when an accident eventually happens:




quote:

Consider this, today one of my best friends was hit by a combat plane out of control at our club while his back was to it faced towards his .25 open B plane while adjusting the high speed needle. My friend was totally unaware of the out of control plane heading his way. Unfortunately, it all happened within seconds with a result that it struck my friend from behind, pushing his arm into a high speed propeller causing great damage to his hand and fingers.

We think the accident was caused by a mechanical problem. This plane was flown by one of the best pilots in our club with many years of experience and no accidents.

The injuries are serious, the pain is hard to cope with and he will need additional medical care for the damaged hand.

Our club is a non-AMA club with it's own insurance policy with an out of state carrier. As a Claims Manager who reads insurance policies every day, I can only say that the club's insurance policy will unlikely pay for the accidental bodily injury caused by another club member as I interpret the exclusions. Had this injury been to a non-club member, it would be covered but we will see what, if anything is paid.

I am an insured AMA flyer. The club member who caused the injuries is not. He is relying on our club's policy and I sincerely hope it pays off. He is also a UMA insured member but it would appear that they are defunct and would unlikely honor any claims after their default in November.

What is the lesson learned here ? AMA has been around a long time and will hopefully be there far into the future to protect you and your family's assets. Every time you fly without adequate liability coverage, you risk it all. Attorneys are expert in pursuing personal injury lawsuits against people who inadvertantly cause harm. If you are a club officer in a non-AMA club, you "may" be at risk for suit as well even though you had no direct responsibility for the caused the accident, but as club officers, you are vicariously responsible for determining the right levels of insurance, training, and safety of it's members. Attorneys are always looking for deep pockets. It's a fact, it's what they went to school for and why some of them drive very nice cars. I am not advocating the AMA's insurance but at your next club meeting, perhaps it would be wise to review your liability policy, no matter where it comes from.

Also, not all home owners policies will cover you in the event of a bodily injury claim and those that do have very limited policy limits. The next time you go flying with either no insurance or questionable liability coverage, take a moment and think about how much damage you can actually do to another if your plane gets away from you for just a moment. A blow to the head by even the smallest planes will likely cause major injuries at moderate speeds. What would a larger plane do ?

Knock the AMA all you want, I'll fly with the confidence knowing that I'm covered.

AMA #787229

(in reply to mrbigg)
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/2/2005 3:23:57 PM   
J_R


 

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From: Corona, CA,
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tpes

J R, you can quote chapter and verse all day long, but the truth be known, to 90% of the R/C fliers the AMA is only a necessary evil for the INSURANCE that allows them to fly at the flying field. Question? Would you be in the AMA today if it was not a requirement to fly at your local flying field? And if yes, why? Please tell me what the AMA has done specifically to improve your enjoyment of the hobby? They got us more frequencies back in the 90's making all of our equipment obsolete, that was a big help. Actually it was because it allows more people to fly at one time, but of course when was the last time you saw 40 airplanes in the air at the same time. Don't tell me a magazine, Kalmbach Publications and Carstens Publications seem to be doing a great job without the AMA. Sorry J R, it's the INSURANCE.
Ed Dupaquier


Hi Ed

I will try to address each of your questions and statements.

If you read my postings in this forum, you will find that I use the figure of 85% of the membership viewing the AMA as only a source of insurance. I won’t argue with you over the 5% difference.

Would I be in the AMA today without the requirement for insurance. Well, yes, I would. I was first introduced to the AMA by Frank Zaic, who purchased for me my first AMA membership. I grew up next door to Art DeLucca, GM for Ohlson and Rice, and later Carl Goldberg was a member of a club I was president of. The input from those people had virtually nothing to do with insurance. I became a CD because my fellow members wanted more contests then others were willing to run (and there were plenty of events back then, so that is not to say there were not contests). Insurance has always been a very minor part of my personal reason for being an AMA member, and really, the insurance concerns I do have relate to supplying the landlord coverage so that the clubs I have belonged to, through the years, can exist. Although I have taken earned CD memberships in the AMA, I have always done so only for open contests where at least 100 pilots participated. I have run many club contests which I refused to sanction because the sanction was simply not necessary. In many years, I have paid my membership fee because of this attitude. My wife is an AMA member and her only interest is keeping the dust off my models.

To be honest, I get tired of hearing about the acquisition of more frequencies as the only thing the AMA has ever done for the membership, other than insurance. It is history. At the same time, there are many members, apparently including yourself, that are unaware of what the AMA does on a daily basis for the hobby. The AMA had a tiny voice with the FCC about BPL (broadband over powerlines). If the membership was larger, the voice would be louder. This has the potential to wipe out RC as we know it. Along the hams, some safeguards have been mandated by the FCC. The FAA is redefining pilotless aircraft, of which we are a small part. The AMA, in the person of Dave Brown, is taking a very active part in these discussions. The AMA has taken, and continues to take, an active part with the TSA relative to the transportation of models, including but not limited to conducting classes for TSA agents on what to look for without destroying models being transported. Discussions with the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI have and are continuing to take place over concerns with model aircraft as potential weapons. The list goes on. The AMA is guilty of not blowing it's collective horn loud enough to make that 85-90% of the membership aware of these types of contacts.

In addition, of course, the AMA promotes competition. This is an area where the other 10-15% if the membership are more aware of AMA efforts. Even there, the AMA does not make the relationsip with international modeling as clear as it might be. The relationship with the FAI IS a big deal, in spite of the fact that 85-90% of the membership are unaware of it.

I could easily run this list out for several more pages. The AMA has done so in a document on the AMA website, that most members will never see. I don't expect the average AMA member to ever know what the AMA does, other than supply insurance. I do expect that hobby shops and at least some club officers would have some idea, and make some attempt to make new members aware that the purpose of the AMA is to promote modeling, and that a benefit of membership is insurance, not the other way around.

The IRS has tests it applies to maintain the AMA's 501 (c) 3 tax status. One of those tests is publishing a magazine. Model Aviation Magazine and the newsletter enclosed within it (such as it is) helps in maintaining the tax status. We could do other things that might well cost more to try to maintain that status instead. Although a museum exists, it is not accredited (another test from the IRS). We could have "on campus" classes and that might help maintain the tax status. As the situation exists, the $8 a year per member spent on the magazine/newsletter appears to be a financially responsible way to maintain the tax status.

If you are truly interested in what types of things the AMA and it's members do for modeling, take a look at this post by Fred Marks on the history of the frequency committee. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2788709&postcount=5

JR
Jean-Pierre Rondot
AMA 732

(in reply to tpes)