RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........  
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/4/2005 12:57:50 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

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From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: horace315

SNIP

.i think our 15 minutes of fame is due.




I am fairly sure there a bunch of folks on this forum who agree with you. The issue seems to be getting the powers that be in the AMA to see that and act accordingly.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to horace315)
       Post #: 51

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/4/2005 5:30:45 AM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3642
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tpes

Horrace, lighten up a little. This is a fun hobby where people gather to fly model airplanes, have a good time, and swap lies about how radio interferance was the reason their plane crashed. In my comments to Steve at AMA I was only repeating what I hear while being on the front lines in a hobby shop that sells R/C. My store is a full line toy and hobby store with less then 10% of my business being R/C aircraft, yet that does not decrease my interest in having the new pilot enjoy his new aircraft as I am sure you enjoy your aircraft.


"Lighten UP" Man have I heard that a few times. Well, Ed, I have PAID MY DUES. I EXPECT ALL OTHERS TO PAY THEIRS.
I am a Life Member of AMA and that was not to save money but to establish my dedication to AMA as an organization, but not necessarily to the AMA EC's policies and/or lack thereof. I also have and am financing the ability of a club to have a club-owned flying facility. If you think that there is NOT a deed restriction requiring 100% AMA Charter in that sales-contract then you are again even more unaware of why I belong to AMA. JR stated his reasons and while not exactly the same, his remarks are adequately stated for me also. Been AMA since in grade school and kind of learned to live with it.

quote:


We support the AMA in the store, but the AMA has to make its presence better know. We receive applications from the AMA each year, yet to the best of my knowledge there is no mention for a trial membership on that application.


Those applications are for AMA membership. Don't blame AMA or the clubs if as an AMA member plus a LHS owner, you fail to make yourself aware of all of the AMA membership requirements & options, especially if you are going to be concerned with helping people fly their toys. Several years ago when I was on an unfamiliar road, well I told that judge I don't see no stinkin' 45mph sign. He say to me, "Boy, ignorance of 'de law ain't no 'xcuse -- $125 in my pocket NOW!" Yep, he did!

quote:


Let's face it these little electric planes that hit the marketplace a couple of years ago are here to stay, at least for the short term and maybe longer. We need a way to accomadate these folks, not run them off.
Ed Dupaquier


That is for sure, however blaming the older guys that keep the clubs intact using the current rules is not the answer. Getting people elected to run AMA that can make the new rules is the answer. How many AMA members did you tell to vote for persons different than the incumbents on the past AMA elections?

edit: format

< Message edited by Hossfly -- 1/4/2005 5:33:20 AM >


_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

(in reply to tpes)
       Post #: 52

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 12:16:43 AM   
papermache



Posts: 671
Joined: 9/26/2002
From: Gary, IN, USA
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YNOT,
If the AMA wants to grow, it has to do some basic marketing that it's not doing now. For instance, EVERY r/c model airplane or helicopter sold in this country, from the smallest park flyer to the largest composite 3D machine or sailplane, should have an AMA membership appication in the box. Have a postpaid card that gives the holder 30 days free trial membership just for sending it in. Yes, this could cause some headaches, but people would know that the AMA is out there! Why do you think the Mother and her kids got turned away from the AMA field? Moronic members? maybe, but more than likely they didn't even KNOW that there was such a thing as the AMA before they got to the field! The AMA needs to let people know it is there!
The AMA also needs to let the membership know about issues that effect the hobby - the ones it lobbies for and against. Maybe DB and company are unaware of the effect even 10 or 12 letters on a single subject can have on a Representative or Senator. If I can sit here and write this, I can (and do) write my congressman.
Want to grow your organization? You have to let people know you're out there and what you're doing for them out there. Advertise if you have to, but get the word out.
papermache (AMA member)

_____________________________

Slope Gliding - A Northwest Indiana tradition since 1896

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 53

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 3:13:40 AM   
tpes


 

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Hoss and JR,
Your new best friend, Ed in Houston. Guys I an NOT against AMA and Hoss I have also paid my dues, both literally and figuratively. But you know what, when you need the AMA (insurance) to properly enjoy the hobby we have freely chosen to pursue, let's not hide behind some idea that this organization has our best interest in mind by throwing a Nats at us once a year and publishing a magazine once a month. As the ole saying goes, if it walks like insurance, if it talks like insurance, if it smells like insurance, and if it protects us like insurance, LET'S CALL IT INSURANCE. Why don't we just join the AMA and receive a "Membership Card" rather then a license, that word is so misleading to the non AMA member especially when it is spouted as gospel at the flying fields of America.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 54

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 6:06:27 PM   
J_R


 

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Well, Sir, here are my thoughts

I am a CD. I have never asked for, nor been asked for an AMA license. That might well be a geographical distinction. “Let me see your AMA card” is what you will hear most often here, or “AMA membership is required”. The simple fact is, the thing is designated a license in the by-laws. The changing of the by-laws is a non-trivial thing… very difficult to do. While some of us here believe some areas of the by-laws need to be changed, the designation of the card as a license is so minor that discussion of changing it has never come up here. Whether it is a license or not has been discussed. Changing the term is trivial, IMHO. The AMA has been issuing licenses since it’s inception. Recently, the AMA had a growth rate of 3% a year, on average. In the last two years, the AMA has lost about 10,000 members. I somehow doubt that was due to the sudden recognition by members that they were carrying a license.

There are many discussions here about insurance. You won’t find many that do not view insurance as an integral part of the AMA’s appeal, or that is the financial engine of the AMA. For the 85% that view the AMA as insurance, fine. I have no problem with that. The day all of the other 15% believe it, the AMA is done.

If you want my to know why I say the AMA would be done, and are interested in my opinion, read on. If not, we can agree to disagree.

The market for entry level “foamies” is a new one. I believe this is an entirely separate issue from the current membership decline. There is, in my opinion, a huge opportunity to grow the AMA, IF the AMA can find a way to show that it has value to these people.

The title of this thread is “Why the AMA is not growing…”, so here is my opinion as to why, and it is directly related to insurance, although from a different perspective. I can not believe that enough of our older members are dying and not being replaced with new younger members to account for a 10,000 member drop over the last two yeas. The numbers available do not support such an argument. So, where did they go, and why? The reasons all relate to “risk management”. Here are a number of examples of actions taken. The AMA has (not including a few experimental aircraft) a 55 pound weight limit. Forever, it has been the custom of modelers to weigh a model dry. We balance our aircraft dry (with some minor exceptions), we have determined our building skills by weighing a plane dry. Light aircraft fly better, right? It never made much of a difference in the scheme of things. Manufacturers produced models that were larger and heavier as technology allowed. The turbine and giant scale manufacturers supplied the demand for product, in accord with desires of the membership. One day, in the name of risk management, someone decided that the 55 pound limit is a wet limit… it includes some rather heavy fuel. That put some very nice, and very expensive models on the bubble, requiring that they either be set aside and not be flown, carry an minimum amount of fuel that many consider unsafe, or… they be flown at over 55 pounds.

A rule appeared prohibiting the touching of the rudder of planes. It was also done in the name of risk management. Not as a safety issue, but, because it was indefensible in court, according to Dave Brown. While there were not a lot of people flying big birds complaining, the rule had included light electrics, and 40 sized profiles and small 3d machines. The owners of those aircraft had a choice, don’t touch the tail, for no apparent reason, or… touch the tail in violation of the safety code.

A rule appeared, without reasonable explanation, banning autonomous flight. Besides the fact that it banned free flight, on the face of it, RC autonomous craft were also banned. The ban was so wide that it was not clear that it did not prohibit “co-pilots”. Here, again, the owners had choices. They could either put their machines aside, or fly them in violation of the Safey Code. This was not a safety issue, nor an insurance issue, although many folks blamed the insurance underwriters. The “risk management” in this case related to the potential to use aircraft as terriorist weapons, NEVER as an insurance issue.

Li batteries have come under scrutiny. Misleading and false information have been put forth, and concerns raised over this developing technology. We have many members who are simply disgusted with the lack of accurate statements in support of the technology.

We won’t go into older issues, such as the rules for combat or pylon.

There are people that are flying overweight turbines and giant scale planes. There are people touching the tails of planes. There are people flying autonomous aircraft. There are people using Li batteries. I believe many of these solid, knowledgeable, skilled modelers have left the AMA membership in disgust. I believe we have lost those members right out of the heart of the AMA in the name of “risk management”. Insurance is a tool to reduce the risk to the organization, not to eliminate risk of activity.

The historical model for the AMA is that after a dues increase, there has been one year of flat growth, then a return to normal growth. Not only did we not have flat growth the first year, we had negative growth a second year. By the historical yardstick, that means not only did we lose the 10,000 but an additional 3% (5100 members) in the second year, for a total of about 15,000 members lost.

While there will be some that feel that Dave Brown won a mandate by winning the election by about 8000 votes, I submit to you that the mandate is the 15,0000 members lost that voted with their pocketbook and feet. Now, I do not view Dave Brown as trying to destroy the AMA, or as stupid. I do think that he darn well better reconsider his views on risk management and return the AMA to being an organization for the furtherance of model aviation.

(in reply to tpes)
       Post #: 55

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 6:51:45 PM   
jonkoppisch



Posts: 1913
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: online
Though negligable, I'd say the dues increase also played a little part in it also..... I believe that some of the last minute policies attributed to it as well, tail touch etc. Can't wait to see what the warning signs being put up everywhere will do...

_____________________________

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(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 56

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 7:08:49 PM   
yard-dart



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From: West Monroe, LA, USA
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JR,

Here are a few opinions of mine as to why there is such a decline in the hobby.

For starters, I see the younger crowd (15-25 years old) losing interest. With the hitec video games that are out on the market now, youngsters just aren't leaving the house.

For all the newbies to learn how to fly, they must have someone to teach them how. Sure, simulators help, but they don't completely teach a person. A lot of the people who are qualified to teach just don't have the time. I, for one, over the past four years have taught quite a few folks. I'm one of those that no longer has the time. I barely have enough time to fly at all. There are at least four or five new guys here locally that are waiting to be taught. There's nobody to teach them. Training once a week, if an instructor has the time, will not be ehough for someone to learn. Training takes flying at least four times a week, for at least a couple of weeks. People just don't have that kind of free time now. These people waiting to be trained will soon find another hobby.

Clubs, and people, are losing flying sites. Due to urban sprawl, and land developement, flying sites arel being forced out. If you don't have a place to fly, you get out of the hobby.

People, believe it or not, just aren't spending the money nowdays. The economy is in such turmoil, people are holding on to every dollar they can. Just recently, our local club voted on going up on dues, from $60.00 a year to $120.00 a year. Over half of the club members have decided not to rejoin. Where will they fly? They probably won't!

You and I have both discussed the insurance situation. I don't like it, but I've got to have it. I honestly feel that I will never use any of the other services the AMA provides, so I am paying for insurance and a pretty dull magazine. Many people choose not to join/rejoin because of this.

Lastly, there just isn't enough publicity for the hobby. Sure, a small town here and there may support the hobby pretty strongly, but here, people just don't seem to get into it. They're more into football and baseball. We've had several large flyins to try to boost the awareness, but it just doesn't bring many new members in. People love to watch them fly, they just don't care about participating. I feel that it's the AMA's job to use a large portion of the money that comes in and spend it on advertising and areas where the hobby is struggling. The money is there, they just need someone with some common sense to tell them where/how it needs to be spent.

I don't see the hobby dieing any time soon, but I definately don't see it growing much either.

Just some thoughts,

John



(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 57

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 8:47:55 PM   
mr_matt



Posts: 6467
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From: Oak Park, CA,
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While I think JR makes some valid points, I would not be so quick to discount the effect of the "park fliers"

At my field, I see A LOT of interest in these planes, and I do not mean just the little trainers, but instead the massively powerful/maneuverable 3D profile planes.

Now I can only conclude that the popularity of these planes is nationwide. As such, I am sure that MANY that were in a "mariginal" club situation (ie crappy members, officers, dues, facilties, politics etc) have found more and more enjoyment from these park fliers, and they have gradually dropped out out of the club field scene.

If you ask me, that is where a great number of the missing members went.....don't need club or club field, then they don't get the AMA either...hand in hand.

_____________________________

Matt
JetCat rep

(in reply to yard-dart)
       Post #: 58

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 9:30:08 PM   
yard-dart



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From: West Monroe, LA, USA
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Matt,

I'm not disputing your word, you are probably right. It's just not the situation here in my part of the woods. I, personally, don't know of a single person that has chosen electrics over glows. I do, however, see that electrics are making a big entry in other areas of the nation. About the only way I'm going to go electrics is if glow is banned for good.

So, it may be just as you've stated, just not in this area.

Now to think of it, the electrics that MA advertises and promotes could very well be a large part of what causes the organization to crumble.


John

< Message edited by yard-dart -- 1/5/2005 9:40:53 PM >

(in reply to mr_matt)
       Post #: 59

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 9:46:00 PM   
Mike in DC


 

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J_R, to summarize your thoughtful post, it sounds like you believe the reason the AMA is losing members is members are disgusted by too many new rules. Without scientific evidence, I guess the best we can do is disagree, but I definitely do disagree. There are just too few people with 55 pound planes or the inclination to touch their planes in flight. Take that small number of people, and factor in how many really care about the rules, and you get an even smaller number. Of those, the number that would quit the AMA (and thus the hobby) because of an abstract disagreement on rule making would be insignificant.

I can tell you that in my club of 200 people, there is probably not a single person who would leave the AMA over this. Actually, it's not clear that more than about 40 of the club members even fly regularly, and only a dozen or so have the size of plane or skill to worry about these rules.

My guess is that the factors are closer to what yard_dart contributed (loss of flying fields) and mr_matt (electric 3D planes). I am seeing a LOT of these little electric powered 3D capable foam planes at the field and guys are having a blast with them. If someone's driving 30 miles to a club field, and now finds he's having a ball with a plane he can fly at the local school, to my thinking, that's a more likely lost AMA member than someone with a 55 pound plane. The guy with the 55 pound plane is not likely to garage it, or fly it in a parking lot.

Actually, I'm sort of in that boat myself. The $150 a year I spend on club membership and AMA membership would very quickly pay for the kind of electric power that would be really fun. I have my eye on a couple of fields close to my home that are set in the middle of forests and are virtually empty when the soccer kids leave. I think I could trust my homeowners insurance plus umbrella policy to cover any liability.

On the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen a park flyer at a park, and you are right that it's probably too recent a development to cause the decline, but I think it's definitely a threat for the future.

I'm not sure the aging of the membership is not a big factor (coupled with not attracting new members). If the average age of AMA members is 57, there have to be a LOT of old guys. They don't have to die to stop being members. Maybe their eyesight or reflexes prevent them from flying.

(in reply to mr_matt)
       Post #: 60

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 9:49:11 PM   
Jim Branaum


 

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From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: yard-dart

SNIP

I, personally, don't know of a single person that has chosen electrics over glows. I do, however, see that electrics are making a big entry in other areas of the nation.

SNIP

John



John,
It is odd that you say that after what I saw at my club meeting last night. We elected a new president in December, and he took office last night. We are a wet club, he is an electric only flyer. Then during show and tell, a young kid (still in high school) got up and showed his high power 3D electric plane with a radio receiver and ESC he made himself from discussions on another forum. I questioned him about the cost of that RX and he said something like $2.63. I challenge you to say HE is not a modeler.

My point is that HE represents a large and growing group of REAL MODELERS that are having less and less to do with the AMA. A larger portion of our membership IS moving to electrics, HAS moved to electrics, or also plays with electrics. These are the folks the AMA is not offering enough to. Why should some kid who makes his own electronics bother with AMA membership? Why should some park flyer guy pay more for AMA membership than he pays for a 3D electric shock flyer? Indeed, why when the AMA tells him that his power source of choice is bad when he knows different (as Fred Marks discussed).

Guys, we have a problem of perception and we need to help get it changed. That probably is going to mean some grief and heartache, but that is better than the alternative. The current AMA administration clearly has been looking the wrong way and has not made things better, rather has clouded the water we all must drink. I hope we can all work up something effective we can get the administration to listen to, but it does take some effort. I am willing and there are others here willing also. Maybe between all of us we can come up with something that will fly.







_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to yard-dart)
       Post #: 61

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 10:23:32 PM   
PilotFighter



Posts: 1909
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
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I have always bought top quality engines and fuels. I am a little mechanically inclined. I get to the field and I fly. But I see many floks that don't. They are in another hobby. They tinker with stuff that just doesn't work. They really struggle. It is sad. Of course there are aways experts around to help. But junk is junk. And sooner or later these folks just aren't around anymore, duh.
Well, the electrics are idiot proof. Almost anyone can make an electric motor run. And for the non-mechanically inclined segment of the population, ( which I believe is growing) the electrics are the user-friendly answer to thier prayers.
And the performance of these electircs is fast approaching any of the glow models. The cost for the higher performing electrics is substantial, but likely to come down. I do know people that prefer electrics to glow, many. I try to convert them to glow, and they say here, fly this. And man, I have to tell you, these things are strong flying little planes.
I beleive the electrics will continue to grow in popularity and I bleieve the electrics will constitute a larger and larger segment of the hobby. The number one reason that my E-friends decline invitations to the feild is time. Oh, that feild is too far away. Maybe some other time. Flying isn't an entire afternoon for them. They step out in the morning and grab a flight and maybe a couple after dinner. Not a bad lifestyle really. The wife prefers it over hubby dissappearing all day. It just fits many people's life style much better. There is nothing what so ever to be done about it. Except perhaps 100,000 small neighborhood AMA feilds !!! I would vote for that !!! But , you know, $$$$$

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turn left, your other left

(in reply to yard-dart)
       Post #: 62

RE: Why the AMA is not growing........... - 1/5/2005 10:40:00 PM   
Crash90



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From: Cressona, PA, USA
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I think that one of the problems that the AMA has (as you already know) is the park flyer/foamie fad. "Why join AMA when I can fly in the park down the street."

Helping these electric foam fliers find and negotiate indoor sites for flying would definately help attract many of these people.

(in reply to PilotFighter)