RE: Spin entry? and Snaps...

RE: Spin entry? and Snaps...
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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 1:13:55 AM

brweg

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"Not quite right. Let me clarify this a bit. What Barry is really trying to say here is that if you yaw the plane prior to the start of the autorotation of the spin for anything other than wind correction, that will result in a downgrade."

That is exactly what I meant.

(in reply to Silent-AV8R)

RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 2:51:56 AM

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Lots more good info..

So bottom line,,, does the nose have to drop before the wing drops to get maximum score? Or should I still score a ten if the nose doesnt drop but everything else about the stall,wingdrop and ensuing autorotation and spin are perfect? If not, what is the dowgrade if the nose simply does not drop,, but stall is clearly demonstrated by a wing dropping and nose follows the wingtip down and into autorotation? Lets face it, what we are driving at here is meeting the maximum scoring criteria per IMAC judging rules.

Summary
1. Is nosedrop required for a 10?
2. If everything is perfect and demonstrating a stall EXCEPT nosedrop can I score a 10?
3. If not, what is the downgrade. 1 point for every 10 degrees? Or a zero because the nose didnt drop?

I know Im nitpicking but I really want to understand.

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(in reply to brweg)

RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 6:31:44 AM

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BigNed, please read my post above. It makes it prefectly clear what is required for a 10 in a spin. If after reading that you are still confused, then we can chat some more.

To summarize:

1 - the plane MUST stall. If is does NOT stall, it CANNOT spin.

2 - The wing MUST fall in the direction of the spin as the nose falls. This is a simultaneous deal. The nose and wing are departing at the same time. Not nose first, then wing. That is deducted at 1 point per 10 degrees. Same deal if the wing is dropping before the stall. 1 point per 10 degrees. And again, no stall is an automatic zero.

3 - the plane MUST autorotate. Failure to do so is a zero, since the plane is really in a spiral dive if it is NOT autorotating.

4 - The plane MUST stop at precisely the prescribed number of degrees of rotation and account for any wind correction. In other words, don't stop the spin and THEN add in wind correction. Stop the spin at the wind corrected attitude.

5 - establish a wind corrected vertical downline that is visible to the judges. Failure to do so is a 1 point per 10 degrees variation.

6 - perform a smooth radius 1/4 loop back to wings level. End of figure.

< Message edited by aresti2004 -- 1/26/2005 6:33:34 AM >

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 7:30:07 AM

quist

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Aresti, What makes you so smart!

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 11:59:50 AM

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lol,
Im really not confused, your answer further makes my point and I appreciate your time to answer.

quote:

2 - The wing MUST fall in the direction of the spin as the nose falls. This is a simultaneous deal. The nose and wing are departing at the same time. Not nose first, then wing. That is deducted at 1 point per 10 degrees. Same deal if the wing is dropping before the stall. 1 point per 10 degrees. And again, no stall is an automatic zero.

.

That is the answer I was hoping for becuase it is what I actually observe when I slow a pattern or IMAC plane down and let it just stall, dont do anything but keep it on track and flying level and then when it stops or slow to stall speed just let it do its thing. The quote above is what happens.

.Im getting the impression from some of the posts that you will get dinged or even zeroed if the nose doesnt drop and THEN a wing drop, implying that a stall is a clear 1-2 action nosedrop THEN wingdrop. As you said they happen simultaneously most of the time from my personal observations. Occasionally the nose will really drop noticeably especially on a totally calm day, but normally it is as you said, THANK YOU.

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(in reply to quist)

RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 12:23:13 PM

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Mike,

Bill has done an excellent job of telling you how to do the perfect spin. Unfortunately, we don't have perfect judges. I'm letting you know that, so that you can expect it. That's why I said this in an earlier post and it made you feel that you would get worse scores if the nose didn't drop first:

"you sometimes have to fly what will get the best score with the majority of judges. By the book, the perfect spin has 'simultaneous movement in roll, pitch, and yaw'. There are many judges that would zero the perfect spin because they didn't see the nose drop first to prove you stalled. To play the percentages, I always let the nose drop some before initiating the spin. A slightly lower score from a judge that knows the criteria, but I stay away from the zeroes from the misinformed judges. "

It doesn't happen often, but you will find that misinformed judge, and usually at the worst time. Don't worry too much. It sounds like you'll be getting nice scores.

Good luck with this contest season!!!

Dean Bird
Sun Valley Fliers
Phoenix, AZ

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 12:54:33 PM

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Thanks Dean and Bill,
Yes I have been an imperfect judge too in my short judging tenyer so I have I have not only received scores like that, I have given my fair share and Im sure I will again unfortunately.

Now I going to drag this thread out and ask another question. In pattern I was taught that once the plane stalls and you enter the spin you are feeding in rudder and aileron in the direction of spin with full up elevator. It gives a certain look to the spin. I read something in an earlier post in this thread about "aileroning" a spin. What sort of control input is considered unacceptable and will result in downgrade? I just feed in full rudder and elevator and enough aileron to make the spin crisp. is this acceptable or will I get dinged for using TOO much ailerons? My spins with my Edge usually have the nose at about 7-8 and the tail at about 1-2 on the clock but tracking vertically to the ground until the exit where the spin stops and the plane descends vertically.

< Message edited by BigNed -- 1/26/2005 12:55:44 PM >

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 2:02:25 PM

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For what it is worth I try to do my SPINS with RUDDER only.

Below is paragraphed copied from the IMAC site.

Some models may require a little aileron, but be very judicious with aileron application early in the spin entry, because if the plane rotates past 90 degrees the maneuver is a "wing over and not a spin as the plane is not autorotating around it's center of gravity. I have found that, in most cases, my models will spin with only elevator and rudder and in a few cases I may have only have to "lean" on the aileron.

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 2:31:47 PM

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Oh thats a great answer. I definitely stay off the ailerons alltogether anyways to avoid snapping into the spin but I do use ailerons in the spin itself. I will work on developing a spin with as little aileron as possible.

Thanks

Mike

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 3:27:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: quist

Aresti, What makes you so smart!

I sleep at Holiday Inn Express whenever I can

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 3:41:54 PM

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Final thought here. The simple 2 turn spin is a very low K figure, 13 to be precise. You are far better off worrying about trying to improve Hammerheads and Humpties than obsessing about the spin. Especially in the lower classes.

Think about it. A spin with a K of 13 gets you a max of 130 raw points per judge (10 times 13). The Hammerhead and Half-Bowtie in Sportsman each have a K of 31, which is 2.38 times the K value for the spin. So about 4 points in those figure equals the entire spin. So if you get a 5 instead of a 9 on either of those two figures you've lost more points than if you zeroed the spin. Or even more likely, you lose 2 points per each of those figures (get a 6 instead of an 8) and you have done the equivalent of zeroing the spin.

I see lots of pilots (this thread is evidence) concentrating on spins, snaps and rollers and going out and not flying good lines, improper angles, and so on. It is far easier to lose 2 or 3 points in a high K figure than it is likely that you will completely blow a spin or snap. Just something to think about.

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 3:57:58 PM

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Thanks Bill,
The reason for my "obsession"in this discussion

as I mentioned earlier in this thread is that although I am new to IMAC I am NOT new to sequence flying. I have a clear understanding of good geometry, straight lines and clean precise execution of all maneuvers. What I have asked about in this thread and what I focus practice sessions on in the air are quite different. The key to a successful practice sessions is practicing doing the RIGHT things in all aspects. Respectfully, I have a clear understanding of how to manage lines, radii, geometry, pendulum, box issues etc from my pattern experience so although I work hard on it several times a week my goals are clear so I dont need to ask for help.

Snaps and stalls however were unclear so I wasnt sure what I should practice. You guys have cleared up a LOT of my questions and I expect my flying will improve because of it.

So now you can prepare to get your butts kicked in sportsman,,, lol. just pulling your chain..

Thanks a million guys...

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(in reply to Silent-AV8R)

RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 4:04:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigNed

Thanks Bill,
The reason for my "obsession"in this discussion as I mentioned earlier in this thread is that although I am new to IMAC I am NOT new to sequence flying. ....

Got it. As a new scale aerobatics pilot one thing that you can do is to start working on Unknowns as well. During each practice session you can have a buddy just call figures as you fly or something like that. It is an excellent way to get ready for Unknowns. The contest does not really start until after the Unknowns are flown!! I see lots of guys who practice their brains out on the Known and then get 5 zeroes in the Unknown. This is one HUGE difference between pattern and scale aerobatics.

Take care and have a blast

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 4:59:35 PM

v-snap

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What we need are little clear plastic sight angles to clip to our hat. This way we can see the line representation while practiceing. Similar to the wing or canopy sights on the full scale.

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 5:03:45 PM

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That would only work if your head was screwed on straight LOL...

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RE: Spin entry? and Snaps... - 1/26/2005 6:21:44 PM

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What I have heard of guys doing is setting up a 1/2" PVC pipe parallel to the ground about 7-8' or whatever high and adjusting where you stand so that it is in your sight line relative to where your line should be, then have a 45 degree angle going up and out at both ends. You may not actually travel right down the line, but in your peripheral vision you see it as a reference point to get the right line or angle. It sounds a little quirky but its really pretty practical. Also I hold my Tx antenna pointed up into my peripheral view as a reference for center, works good as long as you are one who turns their head and not their whole body.

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(in reply to John Murdoch)