RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.  
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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc. - 2/3/2005 3:40:40 AM   
BobH


 

Posts: 4343
Joined: 4/1/2003
From: Springfield, VA,
Status: offline 		The book has drawings of several Pfalz aircraft. The Fuse drawings have some cross sections showing the shape. The wings are drawn showing the rib stations but I don't see a rib profile showing the exact shape. Lots of B&W pictures with some color drawings in the back of the book. Lots of Info in the book.. You'll enjoy it..

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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc. - 2/5/2005 5:07:28 PM   
Trev



Posts: 146
Joined: 4/17/2003
From: Hessen, GERMANY
Status: offline 		Don, here are the missing 3 pics/ beats me why email doesn't work.

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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc. - 2/5/2005 8:53:44 PM   
abufletcher



Posts: 5003
Joined: 2/13/2004
From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: online 		Trev, thanks for posting these. After looking carefully at the various drawings and photos, two aerodynamic features caught my attention:

1. The tailplane appears to have an inveted airfoil shape, i.e. flat on the top and slightly curved on the bottom.

2. The lower wings TE in many photos appears to curve. But upon closer examination (and a little informal photogeometry, this is caused by the fact that the lower wing have a small about of washout built in such that the outboard TE tip of the lower wing is slightly higher than the inboard TE. Combined with the rounded tips of the DIIIa, this creates the effect of a curved lower wing.

BTW, on some photos I could swear I see something like that famous Halberstadt droop!


PS. Is there an established way to build in wing-tip washout?

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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc. - 2/5/2005 9:20:42 PM   
BobH


 

Posts: 4343
Joined: 4/1/2003
From: Springfield, VA,
Status: offline 		Abu. from my experience , as thin as the WWI wings are all you need to do is adjust the landing wires to obtain wash out.

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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc. - 2/6/2005 3:02:02 AM   
abufletcher



Posts: 5003
Joined: 2/13/2004
From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: online 		Bob, I agree that adjustments to the rigging could be used to set the overall torsion of the wings, but I'm not sure this would produce the featured (up) wingtip look typical of the Pfalz and many other WWI aircraft. For example the alierons on the German 2-seater designes actually appear to have something like a 5 degree torsion built in such that the outboard edge is several inches higher than the inboard edge. No wires could effect this area. I think this torsion would have to be built it.

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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc. - 2/13/2005 4:31:43 PM   
abufletcher



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Joined: 2/13/2004
From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: online 		It's not much of a start but here are a couple of not quite done prototypes for some handmade WWI-style wheels. Both are in the right 5" size for a 1/6 scale Pfalz. I like the idea of using the spoked wheels but it'd be a bit of a waste on the Pfalz. Maybe I'll continue to refine them for some eventual 2-seater.

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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, ... - 2/14/2005 2:11:36 PM   
Tmoth4



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Joined: 3/14/2002
From: Brecksville, OH, USA
Status: offline 		abufletcher,

Your homemade wheels look great. I'm probably going to have to start making them now that Wms. Bros. is out of it. What are you using for the tires?

Jim

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       Post #: 57

RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, ... - 2/14/2005 4:24:31 PM   
abufletcher



Posts: 5003
Joined: 2/13/2004
From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: online 		Jim, thanks. Unfortunately neither style looks exactly like the photos of the wheels on the Pfalz in the Datafile -- which I would describe as flatter with more of a peak near the hub. The pattern of the spokes through the covering also look a bit different. Also there is the obvious inspection hole (with spokes visible) that needs to be replicated. But then that's the advantage of making your own, you don't have to accept the stock look of someone elses wheels. Also the workmanship of this prototype pair is less than ideal. I need to get the wood really really smooth so that it look like metal. Also the cross-section of the rim isn't quite right.

Anyway, now that I have the idea (thanks to all you other kind folks) I can make the next set much more accurate looking.

I tried two types of 1/2" hose for the tires. On the ply wheel I used a kind of hollow rubberized foam. This was much to soft on its own so I slipped a piece of 1/8" hard rubber tubing into it. This is nice and light but I would worry about the longevity of it. It cuts and tears quite easily. The other is serious fabric reinformed heater hose (I think) That looks and feels very much like a a real tire. But it's a bit heavy and has absolutely no give to it. I'll continue to look around for some other alternatives. Plus this 1/2" material is just slightly on the small size. OK but 5/8" might look better.

BTW, I'm impressed with the painting on the CL-III. I'll definitely use the stencil approach if i ever get around to that LVG VI!

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       Post #: 58

RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, ... - 2/15/2005 3:03:41 AM   
abufletcher



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Joined: 2/13/2004
From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: online 		Does anyone have any ideas about how the original fuse would have been formed up? I mean the skeletal frame prior to being wrapped with ply strips is just a set of formers and a few longerons. How would all this have been held in place to avoid twisting?

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< Message edited by abufletcher -- 2/15/2005 3:07:49 AM >

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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, ... - 3/4/2005 11:35:03 PM   
zoomzoooie



Posts: 278
Joined: 12/16/2002
From: Osoyoos, BC, CANADA
Status: offline 		Great thread guys!
I love the Pfalz DIII too. I have a set of 1/6 scale plans for the DIIIa designed by Alan Spievack. They do look good with lots of scale details. I don't know how accurate they are though. I wanted to use them to scale up to 1/4 scale.

I am working on a Halberstad DII and am making the wings with airfoil, built in washout and trailing edge droop. Building washout and reflex is easy with thin wings too. Your ribs should have the reflex built into the airfoil shape. Start by glueing the leading edge on. To set the washout block up the assembly to get the correct washout. Then glue each rib to the spars. I used spruce for my spars. Last, you will have to put a bend in the TE that follows the reflex and glue it on when it's dry. If your washout has flattened after the glue is dry, use your heat gun and twist the wing to get the correct washout again.

The wing tip reflex is easy to make. I started with a sheet of balsa and cut the outline of the wingtip bow from the last rib to the tip, less the amount of laminated wing tip bow. Then I bent the airfoil out line and reflex with my heat gun after I soaked the balsa sheet. after it is dry I glued this below the top outline of the last rib between the LE and TE, like the ribs. If your tip bow is, say 1/4"sq and your balsa sheet tip is 1/8", then the sheet should be 1/16" below the upper surface of the last rib. When you follow the trailing edge lines it will aline itself. Cut and shape the TE and LE of the tips. Last glue on the soaked laminated tip bows right on to the wing tip sheet and onto each other. You can cut the sheet balsa out if you don't want it there. Use strong wood laminates for the bows if you do remove the sheet. Sand all to shape and you get a very nice strong thin washout out, reflexed wing. I build my wing cut out the ribs and add my alierons after the wind is framed to make sure the reflex and washout are correct.

When you cover it start with the bottom. You should make a cradle that will retain the washout when the wing is placed upside down in it. The covering will help retain the the washout with out extra strain. Use the flying wires to set it up and maintain the rigging.

ZZ

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RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, ... - 3/5/2005 12:25:12 AM   
abufletcher



Posts: 5003
Joined: 2/13/2004
From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: online 		ZZ, I'm going to have to read that post a couple of times! I'm unfamiliar with the term "reflex" -- what's this? I have been wondering about how to build in washout and had just about decided it was going to be necessary to construct a specially shaped building surface. With some of the larger 2-seaters it looks like all you'd really need to do is to build a twist into your alierons.

I'd be REALLY interested to know how the Spievack plans for the DIII compare with the Polapink plans I've ordered. Any chance you could post a scan of a representative section -- and I'd do the same (in about a month when I'm back from some travel). I don't intend to build off the Polapink plans but just to use them as a sort of reference for construction problems. I'd like to keep the construction as scale as possible.

I remember the discussion of TE droop on the Halberstad DII. To bad there aren't any factory photos showing wing construction. I'd love to get some insight into how the actual builder jigged up the wing for construction. When making these WWI models I think it's really important to be able to get into the mind of the original builders.

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       Post #: 61

RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, ... - 3/5/2005 12:57:07 AM   
zoomzoooie



Posts: 278
Joined: 12/16/2002
From: Osoyoos, BC, CANADA
Status: offline 		Abufletcher, Reflex is a term used for the upward sweep of the trailing edge of an airfoil. Normal WWI airfoils are undercamvered and curve downward at the trailing edge. Reflexed airfoils curve upward. You can see this in the ailerons in side views. Flying wings use reflexed airfoils too.

I'd like to have been there building these crates,lol. I put a bit of thought into the best method they might have used to build these wings. One was that they just twisted the wing with flying wires. This will work for a consant airfoil wing. Our subjects also have reflex in the outer aileron ribs so twisting will not get the reflex result. The other though came from the Halb DII, is that they curved the rear spar to acheive the trailing edge droop and reflex. This sounds like to much work. I don't think they did it that way. The last and most likely is that the rib shape changed to acheive the various washouts and reflexes.

When I designed my wing panels I kept the airfoil the same and changed the ribs to curve after the rear spar, up or down the amount needed to get the correct washout and reflex in the ailerons. From the under side of the LE and TE of the root rib set at the correct incedence, set the tip to the correct final washout/Reflex. I stared a lot at the pics I had to find the place to put the details. It's about the best thing without factory deawings.

I attached pis of my Pflaz DIIIa. They aren't great but hope you can see. They are vintage plans, I think from the '60's. They don't have much info on them but the initials D.J.M. on the lower left corners.

Take a look at the thread where I showed a drawing of how I did my Halb wings.

ZZ

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_____________________________

If it don't have at least two wings, I can't see how it could possibly fly...

(in reply to abufletcher)
       Post #: 62

RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, ... - 3/5/2005 1:23:30 AM