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ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 9:06 PM   
piotrekpepe


 

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From: Skierniewice, POLAND
Status: offline 		Mr NARUKE's New Design "ASTRAL-XX" For F3A-WC 2005 for Tetsuo Onda. Please look at stab...

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 9:07 PM   
piotrekpepe


 

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From: Skierniewice, POLAND
Status: offline 		Some more pics...

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 9:09 PM   
piotrekpepe


 

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From: Skierniewice, POLAND
Status: offline 		more...

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 9:10 PM   
piotrekpepe


 

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From: Skierniewice, POLAND
Status: offline 		More on:
http://www.vit.or.jp/~tomo/gami/souzya4/souzya4.html

Best regards
Piotr Świderek
www.swiderek-f3a.prv.pl

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 9:22 PM   
Erik Johansson


 

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Status: online 		Have a look a the stunning woodwork as well on this page (not much details, but I think Mike Hester will like this ):

http://www.vit.or.jp/~tomo/gami/astralxx/astralxx.html

It also says that it comes in 3 versions. 0, -5 or -8 degrees of anhedral on the stabiliser. Customer´s choice.

/Erik

< Message edited by Erik Johansson -- 1/30/2005 9:24 PM >

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 9:22 PM   
tommy s


 

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Status: offline 		I am always amazed at the level of perfection in the Japanese' airplanes.
I wonder what the story is on the anhedral stab ?

tommy s

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 9:37 PM   
MHester


 

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Status: offline 		I've tried to ask that question about the stab several times myself. Nothing definitive so far.

And yep, I love that wood work!!!!!! Now THAT'S a roach babeeeeeeee!!!!!!

Hehe.

-Mike

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 10:04 PM   
Erik Johansson


 

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From: Gothenburg, SWEDEN
Status: online 		Yeah Naruke´s designs are pretty much as beautiful as it gets in my opinion. I have loved his planes ever since the Aurum which he flew when I started flying R/C. Also on the subject of wood planes. Tetsuo Onda (the kid in the pictures) finished 4th at the last worlds (being 16 years old at the time) flying the previous Naruke designs Astral X and the Narlar Biplane. He´s the current Japanese champion and will fly the Astral XX this year in France. I hope to be there to check it all out. The guy is 18 years old and flies at world class level. That´s quite amazing.

One thing I´ve noted though is that all of Naruke´s F3A planes has one piece wings.

/Erik

< Message edited by Erik Johansson -- 1/30/2005 10:59 PM >

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 10:44 PM   
tph1


 

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Status: offline 		That is some beautiful work. I'd like to have that ability.

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/30/2005 10:59 PM   
PepsiMike


 

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Status: offline 		And check out that super short pipe. Way Cool.

Interesting to note that neither the rudder or elevator servo is centered in the fuse.

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 4:16 AM   
MTK


 

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Status: offline 		That's the new Hatori they are flying in JPN on their 4 strokes. It should become available in the states but when??

The elevator servo is a pushrod type, so it doesn't need to be centered, per se' except the action still comes from very near center. The rudder servo will have a small amount of slack in the pushing line and Naruke san has decided he can live with the slack. Not as anal as we are in the US perhaps. His rudder will likely move some but the flying is hardly affected probably, so he doesn't worry about it

What I always admired and tried to emulate was the silkspan and dope finishes. A bunch of years ago now, when The WC was held in P'Cola FLA, the Japanese WC Team came through our club field and practiced. I got a very close look at their craftsmanship on all wood airframes. It was quite nice but I realized then and there that it was achievable. Just intense attention to detail for anyone willing to put in the work. I lament the fact that it is becoming a lost art

No ARFies there. I can't stand ARFs but can't deny their convenience

MattK


quote:

ORIGINAL: PepsiMike

And check out that super short pipe. Way Cool.

Interesting to note that neither the rudder or elevator servo is centered in the fuse.


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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 5:10 AM   
ElectRick


 

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Status: offline 		What goes around comes around, as they say.

Wasn't it Hanno Prettner who made the anhedral stab popular on the Magic and/or Curare, way back in the 70's? It was all the rage for a few years. My old Tipo has it, although I reduced the amount slightly from the plans, and swept the wing a bit more while reducing stock dihedral a touch when I built it.

You have to admit, it looks pretty cool.

What's it for? Frankly, I've forgotten what it was supposed to do. IIRC, some said it made the plane more pitchy in a crosswind, but a lot of things can do that. It probably negates some dihedral in the wing, and maybe gets the stab out of the wing or prop wash a little, too.

I couldn't tell anything that it's presence improved when I flew it. Of course, maybe that was my thumbs' fault, and not the plane's.

Rick

< Message edited by ElectRick -- 1/31/2005 5:13 AM >

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 7:11 AM   
Rendegade



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Status: offline 		Ahhh the ol' anhedral stab is making a comeback.

Actually if I recall, the Curare was the first plane to have that extremely cool anhedral Stab.

Orrignally it was introduced to stop the waggle of a fully stalled hammerhead, making the aircraft act as a dart would, to steady itself.

I think it just looks great. I'm glad to see it's back.

A very very nice aircraft.

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 3:15 PM   
MTK


 

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Status: offline 		Anhedral stabs were introduced in models by Hans Prettner, Hanno's father and designer/mechanic of those great models, in 76. Hanno won the WC in Ohio I believe, in 77 with Curare. Everyone here jumped on the concept, most notably Dave Brown with the Tiporare (A Hanson design I believe) and for some time, you couldn't do crap without the feature in your model.

Some had reported some porpoising in crosswind, that's true, and some reported improvements in various things, most notibly looping authority. What the feature does in terms of design is at least the following: anhedral essentially has two area components, the horizontal which is the main intended reason for the stab, and vertical which adds to the fin area below. It makes the vertical stab area larger without having to physically make the fin larger. The rudder authority gets a little more dampened by this factor, something that may have been desired to help the point rolling and slow rolling character of the day. The anhedral stab would require a bit more dihedral in the wing to produce roll neutrality (no roll couple) on knife edge.

On the looping, I can see where a portion of the stab could remain out of the wing's wake and could make upright and inverted loops more linear feeling.

Was talking with my friend Gary about the Curare recently in fact. He campaigned it back in the late 70's and 80's and was very successful with it. He still thinks of it fondly, as being the best rolling and looping model he has ever had.

And BTW, anhedral stabs in full scale fighters were introduced way before that time frame. Correctly placed, they can assist carrier landings.

MattK


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElectRick

What goes around comes around, as they say.

Wasn't it Hanno Prettner who made the anhedral stab popular on the Magic and/or Curare, way back in the 70's? It was all the rage for a few years. My old Tipo has it, although I reduced the amount slightly from the plans, and swept the wing a bit more while reducing stock dihedral a touch when I built it.

You have to admit, it looks pretty cool.

What's it for? Frankly, I've forgotten what it was supposed to do. IIRC, some said it made the plane more pitchy in a crosswind, but a lot of things can do that. It probably negates some dihedral in the wing, and maybe gets the stab out of the wing or prop wash a little, too.

I couldn't tell anything that it's presence improved when I flew it. Of course, maybe that was my thumbs' fault, and not the plane's.

Rick


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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 3:31 PM   
tph1


 

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Status: offline 		That's a silkspan and dope finish Matt? Whatever it is, it is NICE! I'd like to know for sure what it is.

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 3:51 PM   
MTK


 

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Status: offline 		Come to Ocala, Tom, in March. You can see Temptress. She was partially done in such a finish. I cheated and used some automotive urethane paints also on her. Very lighteweight when done right and is all paint of course. I saved approximately 1/2 oz per wing panel over a plastic covering, which isn't much I agree, and is alot more work. BUT worth it to me.

There's no finish like a fully rubbed out dope finish and some of the Japanese are true masters at this art. Also, some of the Control Line stunt pilots in this country are awsome at it.

The best I have seen in Pattern are Bryan Hebert's and Raiko Potter's art, both of whom fly at D3 contests, so hopefully you'll get a chance to see theirs up close. Theirs isn't a dope based finish, but the work is the same.

Due to some fellows wanting to see how it's done, I have a "How To" article coming in the next KF on such finishes. I am also planning a pictorial on same subject when I finish the next set of panels. I am far from a Master at it though, not like the japanese. I get impatient after the paint is applied and never fully rub mine out

Matt


quote:

ORIGINAL: tph1

That's a silkspan and dope finish Matt? Whatever it is, it is NICE! I'd like to know for sure what it is.


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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 3:56 PM   
tph1


 

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Status: offline 		Matt, I'll be at Ocala, with the butt ugly Temp. I can't wait to see your article on finishing. I would like to actually see how it is done because I like wood planes myself and would like to be able to get a really good finish on one.
Tom

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 4:01 PM   
MHester


 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, but they look GREAT Matt!!

I haven't done dope and silkspan in 30 years, but I'm tempted to try it soon. I had to do dope and fabric during my A&P days so I'm not THAT rusty.

It really is too bad most people don't build anymore. I remember 25-30 years ago, you went to the field and all of the planes were different. Some were masters, some couldn't build a lick, but they all had personality. Now people just buy and ARF or let someone else do it, and all the planes at the field look about the same. It's sad, but it's.......progress? Maybe.

I Love the Japanese planes. I hope Onda does well, can you imagine if a wood plane won the worlds?????? The pattern world would tremble Not that I don't wish the US team the BEST of luck, but....well, it's going to be interesting.

-Mike

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 4:03 PM   
MHester


 

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Status: offline 		Tom, I'm sure you'll get plenty of help at Ocala. More than you really want. probably
Just get there and you'll have the time of your life.

-Mike

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 4:21 PM   
MTK


 

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Status: offline 		Mikey you should seriously consider it. One of the simplest things you can do to really settle the surface after initial application of the silkspan, is to gently iron it down with a monokote iron at around 180 degrees or so. It smoothens it down nicely by reflowing the dope a little and you have a nicer surface to fill.

Thanks for the compliment. One can only try.

Matt

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHester

Yeah, but they look GREAT Matt!!

I haven't done dope and silkspan in 30 years, but I'm tempted to try it soon. I had to do dope and fabric during my A&P days so I'm not THAT rusty.

It really is too bad most people don't build anymore. I remember 25-30 years ago, you went to the field and all of the planes were different. Some were masters, some couldn't build a lick, but they all had personality. Now people just buy and ARF or let someone else do it, and all the planes at the field look about the same. It's sad, but it's.......progress? Maybe.

I Love the Japanese planes. I hope Onda does well, can you imagine if a wood plane won the worlds?????? The pattern world would tremble Not that I don't wish the US team the BEST of luck, but....well, it's going to be interesting.

-Mike


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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 4:49 PM   
tph1


 

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Status: offline 		Mike, Oh I'll definitly be at Ocala unless something unexpected happens. I've already cleared it with the "Boss". I want to learn how to finish wood planes that well like yours and Matt's.

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 4:53 PM   
SCJ


 

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Status: offline 		MattK,

Not all ARFs are the same. Look at www.oxai.us if you want to see some high end, and also higher priced, ARF models similar to the Japanese models. The Japanese models are in the $6000 to $8000 range.

Oxai made Astral-Xs for Mr. Naruke. It is the solid canopy version that he sells in Japan. It is all painted with 2 part epoxy and the airframe weighs 2250g (4.95lb)

I just finished an Austar-Z110. I didn't pay particular attention to cutting every gram that I could and it came in at 3537g (7.78lb) ready to fly except for fuel. It is also completely painted with 2 part epoxy.

If you want an objective opinion of the finish ask Eric Henderson. He has posted some pictures here of his Pinnacle that we did for him.

Sam
www.oxai.us

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 4:58 PM   
tph1


 

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Status: offline 		Sam, Those planes aren't in the ballpark $wise of 99% of the people that are in this hobby. They are extremely nice, hence the price, but not a viable option.

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 5:13 PM   
tommy s


 

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Status: offline 		Actually a silk and dope finish is not that hard to do except it is very labor intensive
and requires more time than most people are willing to invest. All you need is a steady
hand, lots of time, and patience, patience, and more patience.

tommy s

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RE: ASTRAL XX - 1/31/2005 5:25 PM   
SCJ


 

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Status: offline 		tph1,

If you are talking about the Japanese models I must say I agree. If you are talking about the Oxai models I really do not agree. Guys are spending $3K to buy a good kit and have it built for them. So the expense is there in one case it's all at once and in another it's in two parts.

It really depends on what a person wants. The Europeans, and Japanese spend that for a model. I think they just sacrafice other things to have a really beautiful, well turned out, model. Oxai builds and sells about 300 models a year, mostly in the the Pacific Rim and Europe. So, there is a market, although, it is much smaller than the $600 market.

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