Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro   
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Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/12/2005 2:05 PM   
Spychalla Aircraft



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Status: offline 		OK. This is a continuation of the "What's Next?" Thread, but with a focus on this Macchi thing. I been studying some stuff and I must admit that this Macchi is growing on me. It seems as though the market is ripe for a 1/5th scale version. All my threads and searches turn up conversations that say Dave Platt and Frank Tiano have both built them but never published or sold plans. Bob Holman does offer a small 61" version done by Dennis Bryant but it's not big enough for most. One thread said that IMP has or did have a kit, but it struggled with wing saddle issues and some scale details. Prof Looney (Joe) commented on RC Scalebuilder back in 2003 that there just isn't anything out there. That he has looked for years. So given the state of the market on Macchi fighters, maybe it is time for a new one.

What is the popular one? The Macchi C.202 Falgore or the Macchi C.205V Veltro? I have been studying the "Ali e Colori" 3-views given to me by "Veltro" (Jay) and it looks like a person could make one fiberglass fuse and cowling, then change between a 202 and 205 just by the addition of cowling scoops and spinner. Help me out on this to clarify what I'm looking at.

The 3-views show a beautiful split line at the base of the wing root. This would make a nice location for plug in wings to the main fuse. Nice. It even has a split line on the tail of the fuse which would make for a good tail cone as a separate piece.

Are these machines split flaps or full flaps? The 3-view looks like a full flap which would make for better wing construction.

I don't have any 3-views of the c.200 Saetta, but from pictures in my Janes book it looks like a totally different machine. Clarification on this would be appreciated.

Leo

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/12/2005 6:02 PM   
F86_SABRE


 

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Status: offline 		Leo,
Basically the 202 and 205 were almost identical except for the 205 which had a undernose intakes (since it had a larger engine). The 205 had an extended portside wing which the 202 did not have. The extension was 200mm (7.87"). So was the port aileron (2200mm -86.6") as opposed to starboard aileron (2042mm - 80.4"). Various documentations state that the Veltro was a better flying machine than the Folgore presumably because of a larger engine and slight design modifications.
They both had split flaps (sorry!)

Scale R/C Modeler had featured a plan on the Macchi Folgore, I believe made by the italian designer Massimo Zuffi (not sure).
May I also refer you to two editions of the SCALE AVIATION MODELLER International (British magazine- http://www.sampublications.com/samfront_a.htm) were both subjects were treated. The Macchi 202 Folgore was addressed in Volume 5 Issue 4 April 1999 and the Veltro Volume 8 Issue 8 August 2002. The documentation was quite exhaustive.

Just to tip you over to either of the two I am enclosing two schemes of the plane... top one being the Folgore and the bottom one the Veltro. Notice that the two had a slight color difference although they both maintained that smoke type camo scheme.

Regards

Reuben

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/12/2005 7:17 PM   
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Status: offline 		here is a pic of mine. This is the IMP version

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/12/2005 7:44 PM   
Spychalla Aircraft



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Tell us more about this IMP version. What are the stats? Is it the 202 or 205, wingspan, weight, engine, flight characteristics..... How did it build? Is the kit still available and such. The point I am trying to get to is whether I would want to mess with this plane if somebody has already done it. I am looking for a unique subject that would sell about 30 fuselages over the first 2 years and then 1 or 2 each year for the next 30 years. If the market is already saturated, then I am not interested.

Leo

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/12/2005 7:53 PM   
F86_SABRE


 

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Status: offline 		Leo....here.... http://www.impscale.com/images/plans.htm

Reuben

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/12/2005 8:00 PM   
F86_SABRE


 

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http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_228849/anchors_228849/mpage_1/key_Innovative%252CModel%252CProducts/anchor/tm.htm#228849

R

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/12/2005 9:07 PM   
Ram-bro


 

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Status: offline 		Leo, the ws is 82" length 72", weight approx.17lbs. The build on the plane was relatively simple, 3 formers, sheet the wing , built up tail surfaces with some detailing in the built up surfaces, no panel lines, lots of plastic detail parts, generic plans. I would love to see this in kit formagain. I think the market has enuff Hellcats, mustangs, P47s etc but not enuff WIldcats, Macchi's, Vals etc. The market is there just waiting for a quality reproduction, how does it go, "Build it and they will come"

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/12/2005 9:50 PM   
CoosBayLumber


 

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Status: offline 		Ram-bro.....

Apparently there are different sets of plans issued by I.M.P. on the Folgore 202.

From what I read the plans that were sold of this A/C were much different than the kit plans. The parts shown on the plans would not in any way fit properly. At Bob Holman, we cut parts based off the plan and made them to fit, but they do not resemble those on the plans.

The first thing the customer did was to telephone us up and cuss us out. The parts did not match those on the plan. About two weeks later he telephoned to give an appology, as he then found our parts fit just fine.

If anyone is still interested, contact Bob and he will run off another set of laser cut parts for the Folgore by I.M.P. that little resemble those on the plans.

This is our second run-in with I.M.P. plans, but was the worst.

Wm.

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/13/2005 2:59 AM   
Ram-bro


 

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Status: offline 		Coos, your probably right about the quality of the IMP product. Kinda hit and miss . I own their P47, FW190D9, Tempest, Spitfire and Macchi. I once owned their Dauntless and had access to their Hurricane. The common thing with the kit was the glasswork was either good to crap, but even their worst stuff I got to look right. The kits I have owned have all been fiberglass and foam. As I have stated in the past and this is for Leo also, I like the unusual kits. make it Leo and they will come.

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/13/2005 3:09 AM   
CaptainHook



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Status: offline 		Leo,

Should you choose to do this project I would really be interested in one. I have always wanted a larger scale Macci but as you stated there are none to be had. This would be an awesome plane for the market that is saturated with all the common fighters of the era.


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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/13/2005 12:52 PM   
SpitfireMKI



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Status: offline 		Yes please do ! This plane would "stop the press" for me !

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/13/2005 3:26 PM   
KP.


 

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Status: offline 		I have the IMP Full kit along with Both sets of plans (wood / glass). The wood plans show everything needed to build from scratch. The glass plans show just the basic layout for gear, firewall, ect.,,,, I have the interior and scale struts. The down side of the IMP kit is that they use lexan for the tailcone and air scoops. Not a big deal to make these out of glass as the lexan sheet can be used as the mold. If anyone needs questions answered I could dig the kit out. I purchased it at Toledo about 10 years ago and will build some day.....Ken

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/13/2005 8:02 PM   
Veltro



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Status: offline 		Leo,

The M.C.202 is the "historic" one that flew through out the war in North Africa, Russia, the Balkins and the Med. The M.C. 205 is the "hot rod" that showed up a few months before the Italian surrender in very small numbers.

I disagree with Rueben on the different wing. The whole selling point on the Macchi C.205 Veltro was that it could be put into production quickly because it was an up-engined M.C. 202. The Italian air ministry had done a RFP for the next generation fighter and Fiat, Reggiane and Macchi's entries were all going to take a while. The M.C. 205 Veltro was an "interim fighter" until Macchi would have their M.C. 205 Orione ready the following year. The Orione had a longer wing and fuselage for better performance at hight altitude where the B-17s and B-24s were operating. Only two prototypes were completed. I'll send you a really good journal article (Air Enthusiast Vol. 24, April 84) that explains it all. I'll also throw in M.C.200 drawings from the same source as the others.

The IMP glass/foam kit has been off the market for over 10 years. I have it and have thrown away everthing but the fuse, which is also junk. If I had lived in Florida when I bought it, I would have taken IMP to small claims court. It was beyond poor quality. There was a definite intent to defraud. I met a guy who built one and all he did was laugh and tell me to sell it on eBay. (My response was that I couldn't do such a rotten thing to someone else).

I have the Bob Holman laser Macchi short kit but have been holding off building it waiting to see what you do. CoosBay did nice work but the plan itself is basic. You're on your own for the radiator, oil cooler, tail cone, canopy, air filter, exhaust stacks, etc. You also have to engineer your own gear installation. I believe you can still get a canopy from IMP but the frame isn't right and it doesn't have the armor plated glass.

The IMP Macchi is 1/5.0 and 83". The fuselage is the same size as the Hanger 9 1/6 77" Mustang, so it is a bit small. I think your idea of 1/4.5 or even 1/4 is better. The PCM 109 at 1/4 and 101 inches is supposed to fly very well on a 3W-75 and because it is such a petite fighter, looks good on the ramp.

I don't think Frank Tiano has ever done a M.C. 202. I know he had the Model Airplane News M.C. 200 plan blown up to 100" a few years ago and it's in his queue (although the S.79 has moved to the front). I've also heard from a couple of German guys who are building three M.C. 200s from the MAN plan and they too have enlarged it to 100". I heard Dave Platt crashed his M.C 202 during test flights and moved on to other things. He never sold plans of it.

Jay

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/13/2005 9:36 PM   
paladin


 

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Status: offline 		Well, I have one of the IMP macchi's. As it was being built the left foam core was thicker than the right. After sanding the larger down to the same size as the smaller we installed the retract mounts. Everything was going along well untill I tryed to work the retracts with the struts installed. incidentally they were sold seperatly and the strut never got fittef to the retract untill then. Well the strut and retract looked great in the retracted position, or in the deployed position, but getting between those two positions there was tons of interfearences.
So after the local model shop finished with the mods to the frame and the struts everything worked fine.

Now all the parts are built, the wing is mostly covered. I have two problems yet to takle:

the top fuse seam has split from the annular ring back about 6 in. But this is partially my falt. The annular ring was actually oval and our attempts to bring it back to round, having to remove enough of the seam tape to get a good bond and pushing the fuse out of its warped shap, was just to much for the seam. AnywayNothing that alot of sanding can't cure.

the rudder is partially built in the glass fuse. and the foam core rudder is not a full stab so somewhere they are saposed to meet. Not a show stopper by any means but it seams this planes life has been one crisis after another. Does not give me a good fealing for how it will fly?

I just closed the design on a Fiat G 50 bias and have sent the templates to the laser cutters and plane to do a quick build next winter. Should be interesting, I designed it for a G-38 + retracts and 15#.

Got to go

Joe

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/14/2005 3:05 AM   
Spychalla Aircraft



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Status: offline 		I bought the March/April 2005 copy of Warbirds International. On p.33 they have a captured C.202 Falgore. Members of the 31st Fighter Group painted it in American Markings and named the plane "Wacky Macchi". I think this is cool. Now how is Macchi pronounced. Does it have an "a" like in man or mamma? Is the "cch" pronounced like a "ch" or a "k"? Given this nickname I believe it must be pronounced like "Mackey".

Leo

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/14/2005 2:33 PM   
carlbecker



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Status: offline 		Hi Leo
Dave Platt says Mackey in his video so that is how I pronounce it. I think the Macchi 200 has different length wings also. I believe its very similiar to the 202 in regards to the fuse but a radial. I believe the wing is the same.
You will do much better than IMP. I am building the IMP Claude now and so far the plans are not bad but we shall see when it comes to the fuse. I have had to make a couple of changes.
The Macchi would be a great one to do. The MAN plans are 83" WS and I think the scale is 1/5 exactly.

Carl

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/14/2005 11:14 PM   
Spychalla Aircraft



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Status: offline 		I just happened to meet with an Italian today. He is a Briggs & Stratton Account Manager from Europe that lives in Treviso Italy. After our business meeting I brought up the Italian airplane company Macchi. He knew what I was talking about and told me that it is actually Aero Macchi which is correct. Well then I asked him how to pronounce it. He said, Makey. Like the word for speed example Mach 1, plus an ey or eee at the end. So it would be like saying ma-key.

I then asked him what Falgore means. He says it is Thunder. I then wrote the word Veltro and he says it is nothing, he does not recognize the word.

So there you go. If we need anything from Italy for the research on this, he said I can contact him.

I am still liking this plane more and more all the time. The size would have to be 1/4th scale at 104" wingspan. That would be a great size. Plenty of engines could fit in that monster.

Leo

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/15/2005 1:55 AM   
saetta


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Leo and all.
Saetta means lightning, Folgore means thunder and Veltro means greyhound. The company is now called Aermacchi, but when the Folgore was built it was Aeronautica Macchi in Varese N. Italy (20 miles from Switzerland) .The company still builds a/c mostly small fighter/training jets. Dave Platt gives the word Macchi and English slant. Its pronounced not makey but more like the fish mahi with a strong K were the h is. All of these airplanes as well as most Italian fighter WW2 monoplanes had one shorter wing.

If you tackle this subject and need any help with Italian translation let me know...I grew up there and supported myself in college tutoring and teaching it here in the U.S.

Mike C.

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/15/2005 2:11 AM   
saetta


 

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Part two.
I will be flying my new IMP 202 in a couple of months, all it needs is clear coat and balancing. The kit was built by a friend who is an expert builder. The project took 4 years. 3 years of frustration 1 year of work. Many many times we came close to dumping the whole thing in the garbage. The kit was /is horrific, the parts were junk , nothing fit, the fuse was crooked, the wings were off etc.etc.
IMP FORTUNATELY went out of business 6 or 7 years ago. Amazingly the plane came out gorgeous , which is a testament to the builder and NOT the kit, but I almost lost a friendship in the process. My friend told me that if I ever suggest another IMP kit he would not even let me visit him. Most of us who like this a/c would welcome a high quality kit and saturation by a defunct IMP should not be an issue

Take care

Mike C.

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/15/2005 2:16 AM   
Ram-bro


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Mike, lets see some pics.

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/15/2005 2:41 AM   
saetta


 

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I will get my act togheter and post some soon.

M.C.

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/15/2005 2:59 AM   
Ram-bro


 

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/15/2005 4:43 AM   
Veltro



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Status: offline 		You guys have got the pronunciation sorted out (Mahi with a strong K). "Macky" is just how the Brits say it, thus the "Wacky Macky" on the side of the plane. I've seen photos of several other captured Italian planes with American or British markings on them. They were quite popular with Allied pilots as personal sport planes since they were designed with fantastic aerobatic capabilities. Bob Hoover almost got shot down in one by some P-38s.

As Saetta mention, the M.C. 202 is a "Thunderbolt" and the M.C 200 is a "Lightning."

Some other trivia:

Folgore is pronunced "full-go-ray" and not "full-gory."

If the word Macchi is included when referring to the plane, then it is a Macchi C.202. If the word Macchi is not included, then it is an M.C.202. It is never referred to as an AerMacchi, although AerMacchi appears on the vertical fin or on the fuse below the horizontal stab.

Great news about your Macchi, Saetta!

Jay

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/15/2005 7:20 AM   
Veltro



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Status: offline 		One last bit of trivia for the evening.

When the Italian air ministry released the solicitation for the next generation of fighters to follow the Macchi C.202, the primary requirement was that it be designed around the DB 605 engine. (The M.C.202 and Re.2001 used licensed copies of the DB 601). The program was referred to as "caccia della serie 5" because of the DB 605 engine. The entries were all to end in the number five and be named after constellations. Thus, Fiat's entry was the G.55 Centauro (Centaurus), Reggiane's was the Re.2005 Sagittario (Sagittarius), and Macchi's was the M.C.205 Orione (Orion). Modelers have since dubbed these the "Series Five" fighters.

In the interim, Macchi was able to quickly start producing M.C.202s with a DB 605 and was content to refer to them as a M.C.202bis, which in today's terms would be a Macchi C.202 "Version 2.0." Because it had the DB 605 in it, the air ministry insisted on calling it a M.C.205, so they gave it the official designation "V" for "Veloce" (fast). It was later renamed Veltro (Greyhound).

The official Macchi "caccia della series 5" entry was therefore designated the M.C.205N, with the N standing for "Nuovo" (new). In the end, only two M.C.205N Orione prototypes were completed, so the interim M.C.205V Veltro became the plane that people know as the Macchi C.205.

Jay

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RE: Macchi C.202 Falgore vs. Macchi C.205V Veltro - 2/15/2005 12:42 PM   
Stuka Jon N



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Status: offline 		I vote for the Greyhound, These Italian birds are great. Fast and racing looking, Here is a photo of my Fiat G-55 Centauro from RCM plans 87 " W/s Stuka Jon

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