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RE: dear sig mfg - 4/13/2005 12:49:59 PM   
TexasSkyPilot


 

Posts: 685
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Our own politicians opened our borders and invited our manufacturers to leave and use cheap labor rather than stay here and use American ingenuity, that was and is NAFTA. And just as Ross Perrot predicted, we really COULD hear a huge sucking noise as an incredible job vacuum was created here in the USA. The stock market has created the situation where companies have to continually show more and more profits, and leaving our borders was the only way to continue doing this, at least for a little while. It's an impossible situation, stocks cannot continually go up, there has to be adjustments at one time or another, and investors withdraw their fund when they see a drop in profits. NAFTA was engineered by large corporations paying off our legislators so they could take their businesses outside our borders. If we DON'T close our borders to the companies that have done this, we're dooming ourselves. That or heavily taxing those companies who left and took away the jobs, those are the only slim chances we have to get America back on track. When we closed Military bases here in the USA, the areas around the bases had to start their whole economy again from scratch, and it's taken many years to start that recovery. All of America is now in that same boat, our industries have moved out, and we're left to pick up the pieces. It IS infuriating. But WE put these short-sighted, money-grubbing un-american lowlifes in office and sent them to Washington. Until the public as a whole identifies which politicians want NAFTA and CAFTA to be dead and gone and keeps them, and join together to get rid of the ones who have supported these acts and this undermining of America, we can expect no change. And until we do this, we deserve no relief.

I personally do not expect any kind of change or revolutionary uprising by Americans anytime soon, as bad as things are they don't have any inclination to rock the boat. Let's face it, Americans LIKE having Wal-Mart in every town, and really don't want to strain their little brains looking at the devastation that Wal_Mart wreaks wherever it goes. This being true and obvious, how can we reasonably expect Americans as a whole to stand up and demand that our politicians put a stop to NAFTA and CAFTA and similar acts? Not gonna happen. Sad, true, disgusting, and the same is going on all over America, with no end in sight. But none of this is news that rocks the very earth under our feet. Every person who reads this is aware of most of this at some basic level.

Let's let this go and get back to modeling here. I'd really much rather read (and talk) about SIG and wish-lists and such. I'm mostly responsible for this thread going off on a tangent, so let me apologize and I hope we can get back to R/C stuff here on our RCU thread.

I for one have decided that if I'm going to act un-American in any way, I'm going to confine it to the stuff I buy for my hobby, such as my SIG Sun Dancer ARF Bipe. I've also got my eye on that SIG Little Something Extra ARF, in Turquoise of course. Also, I just arranged to trade my big FlyBaby Bipe for a built SIG Smith Miniplane. I've already got a SIG HogBipe with a Saito .91, and a SIG Spacewalker II with a Brison 2.4 engine. The Brison has been moved over onto the Spacewalker II from another plane, and as soon as the cowling is finished I plan to see what she'll do! I had a Saito 180 in her before, it was pretty good, but had only about 300 feet of vertical before she stopped and dropped back. Shouldn't be a problem anymore! My last building project as I move into ARFs is to finish up my SIG Kobra .25 . Maybe I'll get something from SIG next just to be different, like that new Sun Dancer .50 ARF I've been hearing the rumors about being released soon!

Jim Surra

_____________________________

Coming toward you, rightside up or upside down, the low wing gets the stick. Thats THE LAW and it never changes, EVER.

(in reply to kelldog)
       Post #: 51

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/13/2005 1:41:36 PM   
Steve Campbell


 

Posts: 4195
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Zachary, LA, USA
Status: offline 		The Sun Dancer 50 is no rumor; it was at Toledo. Kind of pricey at $235 (the price I was told it will sell for), slated for a mid-summer release.

Personally, I think that model (both sizes) has a fuugly cowl. But the quality seems to be the same high standard, and I bet it will fly just fine.

I'm going the opposite way of you; been doing ARFs for the past few years, now getting back into building. I've got a GP Super AeroMaster and Sig SkyBolt that should keep me busy for the next year or so...

I'm putting the finishing touches on a Kougar right now. It should be ready in a week or so. I've only been working on it for six months. Good thing I don't do this for a living; I'd starve.

(in reply to TexasSkyPilot)
       Post #: 52

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/13/2005 1:52:15 PM   
Stripes


 

Posts: 640
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Orchard park, NY, USA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: piper_chuck


We give them much more than they could steal. The problem is ours, not theirs.


. . .and not always a problem either. Had they not gotten the full effect of western medicine they could not have stopped the SARS epidemic in its' tracks. That was very good for us.

A friend in the club recently took a long trip in China and noticed that all the airliners were American made, and new. It takes a lot of model airplane engines and shower curtains to pay for an airliner.

(in reply to piper_chuck)
       Post #: 53

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/13/2005 1:58:45 PM   
RCKen



Posts: 14749
Joined: 7/10/2002
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Status: online 		I know that the kit vs ARF debate has been going on for years now, and probably will keep going. Many say that kits are dying and will be completely gone soon, others will disagree. Although I have purchased and flown a few ARF's and I have nothing at all against them, I have found that I truly building kits. I have lamented at some kits disappearing from the market (especially my all time favorite, the Great Planes Ultra Sport 60).

This brings me to a thought that I keep having, and I have in fact spoken with reps from Great Planes and Sig about this. There are several ARF's on the market that I would love to build as a kit. If nothing else at least my plane wouldn't have the same color scheme as all the rest at the flying field. But this desire comes to light with the release of the Sundance, I WANT to build this plane. The way I see it, manufacturers have to cut all of the parts for an ARF out of wood, they have to put all of the pieces on a building table, they have to put all the hardware for that plane there too, why can't they do all of that and push all that stuff into a box and send it to me as a kit?? All of the design, development, and setup has already been done. I see no reason why they can't sell an ARF and a kit as well to those of us that would rather build.

Now back to my conversations with the manufacturers. I got the same answer from both of them, they would do it if they thought there was more of a market than just one nut case (that would be me). So, all of this rambling has led me to this, call, write, or email the manufacturers and let them know that you would build the kits if they are available. They will go where the money is, and if they know there is a market they will provide for that market.

Ok, I'll put my soapbox away now.

_____________________________

The take off is optional, but the landing is MANDATORY!!
AMA # 712539 www.gettingairborne.com
Moderator- Beginner''s, Sport Flying, Off-Topic, & AMA Discussions
RCU Community Moderator

(in reply to Steve Campbell)
       Post #: 54

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/13/2005 7:28:52 PM   
Steve Campbell


 

Posts: 4195
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Zachary, LA, USA
Status: offline 		Its the same bug that's biting kits, Ken. Demand; as in dwindling thereof. Remember the numerous ARC (Almost Ready to Cover) models that used to be around? How many do you see now? Again, we are our own worst enemy. Plug'n'play, man; that's what the masses what nowadays. And the suppliers are going to oblige. They'd be foolish not to.

There are a couple of current-production kits that interest me; but for the most part, I'm afraid our last refuge will be eBay.

What a depressing thought...

(in reply to RCKen)
       Post #: 55

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/13/2005 10:25:24 PM   
Volfy



Posts: 3227
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Having a couple of firends in the ARF import business, I can say that often the loudest product requests don't always translate to actual sales. A friend of mine produced a few ARC versions of his popular ARFs, after been persistently hounded on about it, only to sit on the ARC inventory unsold for years. (I got one of those ARCs, a .60 P-40E, at my house BTW) Many folks asked for ARCs, only to back off from it when they find out the ARC is $379, while the ARF is $399.

Same thing goes for kits. Would you be willing to pay $329 for a Sundancer kit, when the ARF sells for $399? For the importer, assembly cost constitutes only a tiny portion of his overall cost, the majority of which is in product design, material procurement, parts fabrication, packaging, transportation, advertising, distribution, and support. Frankly, if Sig actually sets the Sundancer kit price according to the relative cost compared to the ARF version, it will probably be $389. They would have to thin the profit margin on the kit version just to attract enough interest. Even then, the minimal revenue they can expect to gain on selling kits won't be anywhere near enough to recoup their setup cost.

You are also assuming the pile of parts the factory uses can be dumped on your workbench for you to assemble just as easily. Many ARFs these days are designed specifically for jig-rigged assembly line production, not hand pinning on a flat board over plan.

I feel your pain. I started RC 20yrs ago with kit- and scratch-building and enjoyed it tremendously. ARFs were in their infancy back then and not at all very appealing (EZ had their laminated foam board over wood frame crap). Times have changed. These days, you can buy a 42% Ultimate on Friday and fly it on Sunday. The RC world is better off because of what ARF brings... choice. You can still kit- and scratch-build to your heart's content - but you don't have to in order to enjoy flying RC. Whatever your feeling towards ARFs are, for the vast majority of the RC public, that choice has been profoundly empowering.

Sure there are a few less kits around these days, but if they are really as great as some of you seem to think, then the manufacturers wouldn't really want to kill a cash cow now, would they? Fact is, factory floors and distributor warehouses are only so big, and they would rather stock them with fast-moving ARFs then sell-1-in-a-year kits. There are still plenty of kits and plans for sale out there, and new designs do show up from time to time. Why fixate on a few old by-gones?

< Message edited by Volfy -- 4/13/2005 10:30:17 PM >

_____________________________

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Steve Campbell)
       Post #: 56

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/13/2005 11:31:22 PM   
RCKen



Posts: 14749
Joined: 7/10/2002
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Status: online 		Volfy,
I totally understand about the economics of the kit/ARF pricing. I can't speak for other builders out there, but when I build a kit the price isn't my biggest concern. Last summer I dumb thumbed my Sig Something Extra and re-kitted it. If I was looking at economics I would have just bought the ARF version of the SSE to replace it, but instead I purchased a kit knowing it would cost me more to build that instead of doing the ARF. I build because I enjoy the process of building. Also, I don't mind paying extra so that my plane doesn't look like 10 others at the flying field. I may be the odd man out with the way I feel, but that's the way I look at it.

_____________________________

The take off is optional, but the landing is MANDATORY!!
AMA # 712539 www.gettingairborne.com
Moderator- Beginner''s, Sport Flying, Off-Topic, & AMA Discussions
RCU Community Moderator

(in reply to Volfy)
       Post #: 57

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/14/2005 12:01:36 AM   
Volfy



Posts: 3227
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I hear ya. When I got back into RC some years ago, I quickly realized building is out of the question. I still got the fully frame-up Kadet Seniorita wing, which I stretched to 71' wing span, sitting next to the rest of the kit box - one of the several kit-builds I aborted. After that, just to get my building kicks, I ended up modifying a few ARFs, some of which ended up looking nothing like the original ARF. Slowly though, I am loosing even the luxury of being able to modify ARFs. The last ARF I did any major work on was a Sig Kadet Sr that I converted to tail dragger and added wheelpants. These days, I'd be lucky to get enough time to assemly an ARF - no mods - in 3months!

Still, there are plenty of things you can do to an ARF to customize it, if you are not concerned about cost or time. For one thing, it is exceedingly easy to turn any ARF into an ARC. Once you are down to bare frame, you can change the tail feather shapes, add wingtips, modify aileron, add flaps, etc. If you can't find a kit for an airplane you're looking for but there is an ARF available, it's not a bad option to go with.

Or you can always get one of the custom kit cutters to do a kit for you from plan. You might have to wait a while and spend more than you would an ARF, but the choice is there.

_____________________________

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to RCKen)
       Post #: 58

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/14/2005 1:44:28 AM   
Steve Campbell


 

Posts: 4195
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Zachary, LA, USA
Status: offline 		I, for one, am not "fixating" on anything; just lamenting the decline of good kit selection.

That's why I'm rooting for my pal to get that CNC two-axis router table up and running. The table is no biggee; being able to scan direct from a plan and transfer that into an accurately-cut piece of wood (without spending three+ grand on the CNC part alone) is the sticking point.

He seems to think its doable. We're already perusing plans...

(in reply to Volfy)
       Post #: 59

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/15/2005 12:43:56 AM   
TexasSkyPilot


 

Posts: 685
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		When I think about building, the fond memories always seem to include one or two of my closest buddies and I messing about in our "building shed", burning our eyes and coughing from overdoses of CA glues and kicker, or further back from too much Ambroid stink. When I build these days, none of these buddies are around, they've all long since moved on in life, away from here and/or away from the hobby. It's not the same, so building versus ARFs is a no-brainer for me now, even when I don't take my time constraints into consideration. Yet flying alone at the field, that's still just fine with me. Safety issues aside, I can enjoy a quiet morning or evening at the field flying a plane or two all alone. But usually there are enough friends dropping by the field to keep me from getting lonely. I have to agree with the "plug N'Play" assessment made here by Steve, I think the masses are a little like water and electricity, we just kind of follow the path of least resistance. Let's face it, a well-built kit for a great price means flying at the field almost right away, that's a hard thing for an avid flyer to say no to. A really gorgeous Bipe like this, I'm just weak, WEAK, WEEAK! I had to have it. I'm really looking forward to taking some quality time and setting it up nicely, and I have to say that NOT having to duck fumes from adhesives is a real plus for me and actually adds to the value, making it an even better deal to me. And of course, it's a SIG plane!!!

Jim Surra

< Message edited by The_GeeBee_Jimbo -- 4/15/2005 12:47:29 AM >

_____________________________

Coming toward you, rightside up or upside down, the low wing gets the stick. Thats THE LAW and it never changes, EVER.

(in reply to Steve Campbell)
       Post #: 60

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/15/2005 1:52:22 AM   
Steve Campbell


 

Posts: 4195
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Zachary, LA, USA
Status: offline 		<<...quality time...>>

There it is.

I enjoy building for two main reasons; its something I did, from a box of wood; and its something nobody else has one like.

That said, I also enjoy doing a careful job on an ARF; just like I enjoy assembling and setting up a helicopter, or building a truck/buggy kit- although you can now count those (full truck/buggy kits) on the fingers of your hands. RTR (Ready To Run) completely dominates the car/truck side of the hobby now. Personally, I think TV and computer games are causing our young to have very short attention spans. I know my two grandsons fit that description, as do all of their friends that I have met. Hence all the plug'n'play stuff from the vendors; they know where their bread is buttered....

Anyway, now that the Kougar is basically done, I've got my choice of two ARFs or three kits, all stacked in the corner, for what to do next. The Goldberg Sukhoi ARF, I think, will get the nod; but no doubt I'll begin preliminary stuff on the Super AeroMaster kit too. That old-style NIB 91 Surpass I was lucky to find at Toledo is crying for a home...

(in reply to TexasSkyPilot)
       Post #: 61

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/15/2005 2:44:17 AM   
kelldog


 

Posts: 132
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: newhartford, CT, AMERICAN SAMOA (USA)
Status: offline 		Good glue,balsa, a cup of coffee,sig kit by the wood stove cant be beat over the long ct. winter.Catch your wife before she goes to sleep on the building nights to keep her happy!JUST aint going to explain it anymore!KEEP YOUR FRICKEN ARFS go watch tv or work yourself silly!Modern inventions suppose to leave us MORE TIME.If you dont have the time, one or two hours a week during the winter for your own home built,custom,durable plane that you can get that feeling again of modeling and invention, and to talk about something at the field again you need to stop and slow down.Arfs are cheaper,fast to get in the air,we all love them sig!!! SELL us only ARFS.Our brains are half dead anyways!!THATS ALL we want!!!!A grown adult 10 years from now flying for 30 years will have the same plane from china as a 10 year old!!INOVATION!! WHATS THAT!! BULLCRAP, NO TIME YA ALL SAY!Innovating is KEY to modeling.IS that where we are now! Altering ARFS for our Quest for Innovation!

(in reply to Steve Campbell)
       Post #: 62

RE: dear sig mfg - 4/15/2005 3:24:54 AM