RE: ABC...wrong break in?  
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RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 3:27:58 AM   
jessiej



Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/6/2003
From: STATESBORO, GA, USA
Status: offline 		[II think running two engines side by side is not meaningless, but not of much value either. Unless the clearances were checked before and after running.]

Very good point. It seems downunder is doing exactly that by determining the "pinch point" during the running in process. I look foward to updates.

jess

(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 51

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 3:28:21 AM   
Steve Collins


 

Posts: 2113
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: St.Charles, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Fuelman has hit the nail right on the head!

Slobbery rich breakin won't usually make an ABC engine unusable, but, if everything is equal between engines, the one run slobbery rich will NEVER perform up to its pre-breakin potential.

If that performance degradation doesn't bother you, then by all means make'em slobbery rich for breakin.

I thought I knew quite a lot about 2-stroke engines but I wasn't having much luck with engine performance which was a bad thing when you are primarily flying pylon races. I started to observe what the guys who were always winning were doing with their engines. One of the pilots who had set a Q500 speed record at the AMA Nats took me under his wing. Well, I quickly realized I really didn't know squat about ABC and AAC engines!

To make a long story short, break in your ABC or AAC engines the way Fuelman broke in the number 2 engine in his post if you would like it to perform to its full potential.

_____________________________

Steve Collins

(in reply to Fuelman)
       Post #: 52

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 6:04:58 AM   
Flyboy Dave



Posts: 13359
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: San Bernardino County, CA, USA
Status: offline 		downunder....

....maybe after we put the "Four-stroking an ABC engine will damage it" myth
to rest, we can work on the....

...."four stroke engines should be broken in sloppy rich, and take a long time
to break-in" myth.

That's another good one.

Dave.

_____________________________

An engineer says.... "That won''t work".
A mechanic says..."Oh yeah, watch this".
"Old Age, and Treachery will overcome youth and skill".
Revver Bro #4.

(in reply to Steve Collins)
       Post #: 53

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 6:57:05 AM   
DarZeelon



Posts: 6944
Joined: 4/9/2003
From: Rosh-Ha'Ayin, ISRAEL
Status: offline 		Steve,


What made Brian (downunder) start this thread, is this thread, which I started (and a preceding thread, which I also started a year before).

And yes, Brian (fuelman, this time...) did hit the nail right on the head, as was also mentioned in my thread's subtitle.


Brian (downunder),


I do agree that some engines may not have much to gain, from sticking religiously to my thread, but would sticking with it cause any damage to them, a loss of life expectancy, performance, or reliability?
I think that you would agree, any tapered-bore two-stroke will not have anything to lose from following it.

I don't think there is anything substantially incorrect in the procedure described there.

The extra Castor oil is good, as is the bringing it up to running temperature ASAP, as are the running end testing procedures...


Do you think anyone will damage his/her new, or overhauled tapered-bore engine from following my thread?
I don't think that you do.

Will the engine be broken-in and ready to run afterward?
I believe you would agree it would.


_____________________________

Dar Zeelon - ISRAEL - ddzeelon@gmail.com
MVVS - Jett - Nelson - Bolly - Mejzlik

(in reply to Steve Collins)
       Post #: 54

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 8:24:13 AM   
downunder



Posts: 3158
Joined: 10/10/2002
From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: online 		Dar, don't take this personally but I didn't learn anything new from your thread. I've heard that story about damaging an ABC by running it rich long before you started even the first thread on it. I didn't believe it then and I still don't but until now I've never had the opportunity to find out for myself what will happen. Many's the time I've seen someone write in saying they've just run their new engine (always sport engines) too rich and you've immediately told them they've probably ruined it.

For those who still don't understand what I'm doing (and it seems you're one of them Dar) I'm not trying to say that the accepted method is wrong. Obviously it's fine. All I'm trying to find out is if running it very rich from new will actually cause damage to a sports type engine, my intention isn't to run it in.

(in reply to DarZeelon)
       Post #: 55

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 9:08:03 AM   
DarZeelon



Posts: 6944
Joined: 4/9/2003
From: Rosh-Ha'Ayin, ISRAEL
Status: offline 		Brian,


I did tell some people that the rich break-in they gave their new tapered-bore engine, may have caused it damage.
I may even have said a couple of time that it did cause damage...

Please read Fuelman' post #48, which may be representative, or not.

He got lesser performance from the engine broken-in slobberingly rich.
I believe you would agree that this is damage, even though nothing is actually broken.


Will every tapered-bore engine be damaged by preferring this type of very rich, cold break-in, to my thread?
Definitely not!

But is following my thread safer than the cold way? Unlikely to cause any damage at all?

Sure it is.


I am not getting paid by anyone that selects to follow that thread.
I may even be scorned by engine manufacturers, wanting to make more money on spares.... that will lose money if more of their customers follow this thread, as Fuelman wrote in post #37.


So with tapered-bore engines, it is my way, or the highway... Even if FBD does not agree...

_____________________________

Dar Zeelon - ISRAEL - ddzeelon@gmail.com
MVVS - Jett - Nelson - Bolly - Mejzlik

(in reply to downunder)
       Post #: 56

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 12:23:04 PM   
piper_chuck



Posts: 7896
Joined: 6/13/2004
From: Pittsboro, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
He got lesser performance from the engine broken-in slobberingly rich.
I believe you would agree that this is damage, even though nothing is actually broken.

It appears they don't. From the responses, the sloppy rich camp attribute the difference to original manufacturering differences rather than break in.
quote:


<snip>
So with tapered-bore engines, it is my way, or the highway... Even if FBD does not agree...

From what I've seen, FBD will never believe. He's convinced himself it's a myth. He's been shown direct quotes from manufacturers, statements from engine experts, and real life examples where sloppy rich break in did result in lost performance. His responses are just back pedaling and refusal to accept what others have already discovered.


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(in reply to DarZeelon)
       Post #: 57

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 1:21:18 PM   
Ed Smith


 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Brantford, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

His responses are just back pedaling and refusal to accept what others have already discovered
.

There are none so blind as those that will not see!

Ed S

(in reply to piper_chuck)
       Post #: 58

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 3:34:28 PM   
FlyNBHappy


 

Posts: 274
Joined: 7/21/2002
From: Peanut Gallery, USA
Status: offline 		Will all of you people in the front row (obviously engine experts) please sit down because I want to watch the show (the final results). Quit bothering the man from"down under" so he can finish and then we can all inject our support or counter-support. Until then, sit down and s**t up. Everytime there is a new post for this link, I think the final results are in but then I see the start of another pi**ing contest. Can't we all just get along? Group hug time. Everyone happy? Now s**t up and lets see the final results.


(in reply to Ed Smith)
       Post #: 59

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 3:49:59 PM   
Dr Nitro


 

Posts: 162
Joined: 11/12/2002
From: The Great Midwest, USA
Status: offline 		With Pinched ABC /ABN /AAC engines, I agree with Ed Smith and Fuelman.
About 6 years ago, Fuelman came down to my area and the discussion of ABC break in came up and we thought he was off his rocker. He explaned why and the reasoning seemed logical so I started doing it that way. When we used to get about 3 gallons from a piston and sleeve set on my 3 sons rc cars, we were happy. Doing it his way and throwing the instruction manual back in the box, we're getting in excess of 10 gallons of fuel through a car engine before needing a new piston and sleeve. My kids race cars, I'm just a simple airplane and heli guy, and my ABC type engines which I have several of from the 25 size on up to an ASP 108 ABC, all have been broken in via Fuelman's advise (which I think is George Aldrich and Dave Geirke's advise as well) and have had no longevity problems at all and I fly very very often.
I do it Downunder's way with ringed engines and a couple of Fox lapped iron engines I have, and after years and lots of gallons, all my engines are like fine tuned, well oiled little machines.

Dr Nitro

_____________________________

Dr Nitro

(in reply to FlyNBHappy)
       Post #: 60

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 3:52:14 PM   
Gizmo-RCU


 

Posts: 967
Joined: 9/17/2002
From: Athol, ID, USA
Status: offline 		This subject has really been tossed around. Several observations, a good test would be with a quality engine. The Bluebird was cheap because it is cheap. A friend had one, a 28 as I recall, and it was the typacal Asian "cheapy". My friends engine was not reliable including a bad carb that leaked lots of air from new out of the box. My guess is that the rest of the tolerences were just as bad.
If this was a good engine quality wise then we all would have some.......They went away just like MDS.

Anything learned from this "test" applys only to this specific engine, period.

I GO WITH DAR AND HIS METHODS, THEY WORK AND ARE SAFE.

_____________________________

Gizmo

(in reply to Fuelman)
       Post #: 61

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 4:30:40 PM   
Gene Chernosky



Posts: 503
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Ingleside, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flyboy Dave

downunder....

....maybe after we put the "Four-stroking an ABC engine will damage it" myth
to rest, we can work on the....

...."four stroke engines should be broken in sloppy rich, and take a long time
to break-in" myth.

That's another good one.

Dave.


You run your engines the way you want to and believe what ever statistics you wish to. The way I run my engines is based on what engine manufacturer's engineers/designers and professional engine re-fitters recommend. I get consistantly excellent results from ALL of my engines.



< Message edited by GrnBrt -- 4/14/2005 12:38:44 AM >


_____________________________

Eugene S. Chernosky
"I'm the person your parents warned you about"

(in reply to Flyboy Dave)
       Post #: 62

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 5:40:50 PM   
Flyboy Dave



Posts: 13359
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: San Bernardino County, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RC-FIEND

PS if you have ever owned a new car or knew someone who did , going
over 50 Mph will seize the engine up , and I mean fast ! This is just another
manufacturers recommendation.

Good Luck.


I want to bring this comment to light before it gets buried too deep. This is
exactly the type of misinformation I cannot, and WILL NOT allow past me
on my watch.

Before we get too deep on the issues at hand, and before I address the insults
that are coming my way....has anyone seen my recommendations or my
procedure for break-in ? Probably not, I haven't posted them.(I don't mean snipets)

Has anyone seen where I recommended someone to run an engine sloppy rich ?

FBD.




_____________________________

An engineer says.... "That won''t work".
A mechanic says..."Oh yeah, watch this".
"Old Age, and Treachery will overcome youth and skill".
Revver Bro #4.

(in reply to RC-Captain)
       Post #: 63

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/10/2005 10:38:24 PM   
Flyboy Dave



Posts: 13359
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: San Bernardino County, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Chuck....What I am saying is, and downunder has set out to prove is, a normal
ABC engine will not be harmed by running it overly rich....fourstroking it....during
the break-in period. (or any other time for that matter)

The terms do not matter....overly rich, sloppy rich, super rich, way too rich, rich
as all get out, stupid rich....

We're not even saying that four stroking the engine is a good thing. We know that
running an engine too rich, and too cool is defeating the purpose of trying to brake-in
the engine in the first place....because it will extend the break-in period unnecessarily
as well as wasting expensive fuel.

I do not break-in my engines overly rich....in a four-stroking mode. I have on
occasion, after a break-in run....cranked the needle way out....into a four stroking
mode for a few seconds to cool the enging down a bit before I shut it off. Of course,
it did not harm the engine.

I doubt that downunder runs his engines overly rich on break-in either, I know for
a fact he is an experienced aero-modeler.

What we are saying is....rediculous statements like:....
_________________________________________________________

"It must not be allowed to run for any length of time in four-stroke mode,
during the break-in."

"Also, in every non-firing revolution the piston is pushed, into the seize at the top
of the bore and then pulled back down, out of the seize, by the conrod. These
repeated compression-tension cycles can ultimately cause the conrod to fail."
__________________________________________________________

....aren't going to pass muster. Other old wives tales like....never let an engine idle
during the break-in period....will be debunked as well.

downunder's Quote:
quote:

Many's the time I've seen someone write in saying they've just run their
new engine (always sport engines) too rich and you've immediately told them
they've probably ruined it.


The bottom line is, I'm not going to stand by while someone uses scare tactics on
some poor kid asking about breaking in his new engine (that he probably spent
his life savings on)....by telling him the factory instructions are incorrect....and
unless you follow my instructions in "this thread" you will damage or ruin your
engine.

That's when Flyboy dave throws his hat into the ring.

FBD.







_____________________________

An engineer says.... "That won''t work".
A mechanic says..."Oh yeah, watch this".
"Old Age, and Treachery will overcome youth and skill".
Revver Bro #4.

(in reply to piper_chuck)
       Post #: 64

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/11/2005 5:08:25 AM   
RC-Captain



Posts: 2963
Joined: 11/12/2002
From: RCHill, NJ, USA
Status: offline 		I never seen you type anything about how to break in an engine in this forum, but Chuck and I have a valuable point which I feel you or any other moderator should back us on. It is simply follow the manufacturers instructions, if you don't expect the worse. If the worse doesn't happen then you got lucky.

_____________________________

I finally broke bread and bought a real charger , THE TRITON 2............

(in reply to Flyboy Dave)
       Post #: 65

RE: ABC...wrong break in? - 4/11/2005 5:15:48 AM