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Paying for Flight insrucrtion - 12/28/2001 8:26:07 AM   
Jackjet



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Everyone,

please tell me WHY it is wrong for a good competent R/C flight instructor to charge for their time ? Full size instructors charge for their time-whats the difference ? BTW, this is a real sincere question.


Jackjet

< Message edited by Jackjet -- Dec 28 2001 3:34AM >


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Jack Jet Williams
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Paying for Flight insrucrtion - 12/28/2001 8:59:47 AM   
magnum



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Hey JetJack,

Boy are you going to get a lot of response to that question

I will go against the norm here(flame shields on). I don't think there is anything actually WRONG with it. After all there are places that advertise where you go for a week and they will provide the planes and teach you to fly and build your plane. I actual considered taking a vacation and doing that. But, I opted for a week on the beach

The thing is, no one should have to pay to learn to fly. Like any hobby there are plenty of people who will teach you how to fly for free, and at most clubs.

One of my hobbies is painting, now there are not many places I know of that will teach me to airbrush for free. But I didn't have to pay to learn - my company paid for it

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Paying for Flight instruction - 12/28/2001 9:22:16 AM   
Jackjet



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Magnum,
I just don't see what the problem is-if the people involved agree to xxx$... next someone will be saying that it's wrong to for people to sell kits.........please




Jackjet

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Jack Jet Williams
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Paying for Flight insrucrtion - 12/28/2001 8:05:16 PM   
cassio


 

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Hey,
I think there is no problem on pay or charge for instruction. Like Jackjet told, they agreed to it ... But, like magnum wrote, why should I pay for instruction if there is many good flyers ready for do it free?
What I consider important is take instruction, paying or not, because the damage is smaller ( my instructor saved my plane several times...

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Paying for Flight insrucrtion - 12/28/2001 9:16:02 PM   
Nathan



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I have no problem with someone charging for lessons. I also have no problem if someone were to charge me for their advice. The only problem is, that would be like charging me to learn about model railroading or stamp collecting.

This is a hobby that promotes helping others. If I have anything wrong with anything, there's a few guys at my club I know to go to for answers. If I'm struggling with a manuever, landing, taking off, whatever... there's a few guys at my club I know to talk to for help. If I just can't seem to figure out what the plans and instructions are saying, a quick phone call will have someone coming to my workshop to help. If I am having problems setting up my helicopter, a quick trip to a fellow modelers shop will get me flying. This hobby is about helping others. Helping at the field, on the phone, over the internet, at each others workshop. It's in this spirit I believe you'll find the reason most, if not all, clubs offer free lessons with membership.

R/C aircraft is a small group of people. Look in your town... what 's the percentage of R/C flyers? Now look at the percentage that are golfers. It's not an industry that lends itself to money making ventures. Golf on the other is an extremely popular hobby right now. It makes a lot of money for a lot of people. It's an industry that lends itself to money making ventures. R/C just doesn't have that kind of backbone, so we rely on the support and kindness of others.

There is certainly nothing wrong with charging someone for lessons, but it's just not part of the make up this hobby enjoys.

< Message edited by Plane Insane-RCU -- Dec 28 2001 4:47PM >


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Paying for Flight insrucrtion - 12/28/2001 11:23:36 PM   
TopShelf



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I think the main difference between payed instruction vs. non-payed is expectation. If I'm paying someone, I would expect them to be at the field at the agreed upon time 99% of the time. If it's volunteered help, I don't expect to be #1 on their runway.

It's all a matter of availablity. When I was learning, there were times when hooking up with my instructer was difficult and I was fine with that as he was taking time away from his family and his flying to help me. If I was paying the guy, I would expect appointments to be kept and that they would generally work with my schedule needs not whenever it was convienent for the instructor.

Kent

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Paying for Flight insrucrtion - 12/28/2001 11:26:11 PM   
magnum



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Kent,

I think you and PLane Insane hit it on the nail.

I think it's all about friendship also. This hobby has some of the greatest people, who are not shy on sharing information to other flyers.

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Pay the Instructor or not - 12/29/2001 12:57:31 AM   
rccc


 

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Gentlemen,

The answer to this question is somewhat multifaceted.

Being one just getting into the hobby, I needed help. Having gone to the local field a couple of times, and one of the 'Mall Shows', I still ended up not knowing anyone who would teach me. Nor was I confident that those that were 'supposed' to be there on Saturday were going to show or not.

1. I live in the north. We just got 72" of snow in the last several days. Like the expression says, 'make hay when the sun shines'.
2. I have a young family that should dominate my time. When free time arises, it must be maximized.
3. As a professional, my clients pay for my time if I show up on time and provide the service promised.

For these reasons, if my instructor, whom I was introduced to and confirmed his credentials, shows up on time, is available for ?'s, and is the catalyst for properly entering this sport, why should he not be paid for his service.

Snow skiing (replace with a favored personal sport) is a lot of fun. Ever see people that are properly instructed over those that are not? They pay for instruction and end up being life-long addicts of skiing. Those that don't (for the most part) roll around in the snow, injure themselves or others, and generally learn to dislike a great sport.

How is this sport/hobby any different?

It is not.

Those that believe so are plagued with a misguided omnipotence that is the cause of the secularism that excludes people from getting involved in a very rewarding hobby. Both personally and friendship-wise.

Say what you want. But if I can't count on someone to be there at a relatively certain time, I'll just have to do what the vast majority of 'Club-Learners' do - wait until retirement so that I'll have the free time to wait around for 'Ole-Joe' (insert local field celebrity) to come by if he doesn't get sidetracked by his Nephews birthday party, wife needing the gutters cleaned (don't know why that's important to them...), or any other reason that precludes them from coming when I'm free and the weather's right.

RCCC
Niagara Falls, NY

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Re: Pay the Instructor or not - 12/29/2001 1:31:58 AM   
Jackjet



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by rccc
Gentlemen,

The answer to this question is somewhat multifaceted.

Being one just getting into the hobby, I needed help. Having gone to the local field a couple of times, and one of the 'Mall Shows', I still ended up not knowing anyone who would teach me. Nor was I confident that those that were 'supposed' to be there on Saturday were going to show or not.

1. I live in the north. We just got 72" of snow in the last several days. Like the expression says, 'make hay when the sun shines'.
2. I have a young family that should dominate my time. When free time arises, it must be maximized.
3. As a professional, my clients pay for my time if I show up on time and provide the service promised.

For these reasons, if my instructor, whom I was introduced to and confirmed his credentials, shows up on time, is available for ?'s, and is the catalyst for properly entering this sport, why should he not be paid for his service.

Snow skiing (replace with a favored personal sport) is a lot of fun. Ever see people that are properly instructed over those that are not? They pay for instruction and end up being life-long addicts of skiing. Those that don't (for the most part) roll around in the snow, injure themselves or others, and generally learn to dislike a great sport.

How is this sport/hobby any different?

It is not.

Those that believe so are plagued with a misguided omnipotence that is the cause of the secularism that excludes people from getting involved in a very rewarding hobby. Both personally and friendship-wise.

Say what you want. But if I can't count on someone to be there at a relatively certain time, I'll just have to do what the vast majority of 'Club-Learners' do - wait until retirement so that I'll have the free time to wait around for 'Ole-Joe' (insert local field celebrity) to come by if he doesn't get sidetracked by his Nephews birthday party, wife needing the gutters cleaned (don't know why that's important to them...), or any other reason that precludes them from coming when I'm free and the weather's right.

RCCC
Niagara Falls, NY
[/QUOTE]



RCCC,
you said it just right !

Jackjet

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Flight time for $ - 12/29/2001 2:33:11 AM   
Jared


 

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I'm a full scale instructor in addition to a model instructor. I would gladly provide all of my time for free, real airplanes and small ones included. There are many of my personal friends who qualify for the "CFI discount" depending on other favors etc. But, there are good reasons to charge. Here are a few ideas from my point of view:

1. It cost me a whole bunch to get my FAA Flight instructor certificate; somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000. That is quite a few props! I am much more likely to want to charge $20 per hour to fly real airplanes. CFI's have to go through training, while model instructors just have to have the guts to say "sure, I'll do it!" Due to this situation, there are far more model instructors than there are full scale ones, and basic economics dictate the price. When I was at school where there were plenty of instructors, I was getting $14 per hour, while in my current large metro area, I'm getting $20. In the right place I could easily get $50-$30, just because there aren't any instructors around. Since model instructors are easy to come by, this demand issue is negligible.

2. Real airplane flying and instructing involves very serious risks and liability; the risk of riding around isn't all that large, since most trainers are easy to fly and reliable. They also have dual controls, and I am qualified to fly the airplane if the student freezes up or some such. However, if the wing falls off, dual controls don't have anything to do with it. The very serious risk in flight instruction is the liability; when I sign off a pilot for solo flight, I certify that I have given him the training to do so safely. If he decides to jaunt off to cuba for lunch, who do you think the FAA is going to call? If he decides that he wants to fly his airplane into something expensive, and he gets sued, I probably will be too. I am not going to take that risk without some type of incentive, such as pay and flight time. (as a certificated flight instructor I get to log the flight time that I spend instructing towards my own total time) If these risks were not involved, I would probably fly for free; however, they are inherent to aviation and probably will never go away. Note that these risks are negligible with models; thus I don't charge for buddy box time.

3. When I commence full scale flight training, it isn't because my student and I just happened to be hanging around the airport together. We make appointments and keep them unless canceled due to weather or maintenance, that kind of stuff. If a student leaves me hanging at the airport, I charge him a no-show fee equal to what he would have paid me for the flight. While some people may be willing to live with this kind of arrangement for models, it sure cuts down on the fun factor. I like airplanes and all, but I don't just sit around at the full scale airport; i have to drive out there, and that costs gas, and it also costs the time that I could have spent working at another job making $. On the other hand, I fly models in my spare time, and I do just hang around at the model field. This is another reason that I charge for full scale time and not for model time.

4. Model flying can be hard at first, but let's be serious; flying a real airplane takes much more skill and knowledge, and mistakes aren't easily forgiven with CA and monokote. The skills that it takes to fly a model are associated with only the first few hours of training in a real airplane. It helps a bunch if a student can fly with the same instructor (or at least one who has the same training techniques) to promote continuity. This makes for more logistical problems that lead to desire for pay. It takes a multitute of training, preparation, and studying on my part to be able to teach someone to fly, whereas models are relatively simple.

To answer your question, If you want to charge for your model instruction time, go ahead. I think it is pretty pitiful though, unless you are flying your own airplane and burning your own fuel. Maybe I should send you a bill for this post But, you do have a skill that is exclusive to a small group, so if you really insist I guess you can charge away. You can sort of compare it to full scale instruction, but not really. I don't really think you can use that excuse to rationalize it, because there are some big differences. Did anyone charge you when you learned to fly? just curious...

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Paying for Flight instruction - 12/29/2001 2:47:20 AM   
Jackjet



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Jared,
very good answer,as far as did I pay for flight instruction-no I did not-I taught myself on a 3ft glider way back in 1968-was no one around to teach me-plus I read alot of books on avaition.I think that helped.Now when I train someone-I provide the trainer aircraft with engine and radio and fuel-and I charge-$30 per hour.I see nothing wrong with this.This IS the USA-(at least I think it still is)

Jackjet

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Paying for Flight insrucrtion - 12/29/2001 3:32:44 AM   
magnum



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From: Huntsville, AL, USA
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Jacjet,

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. However, at my field you may have some stiff competition. Since I have my own trainer, radio etc.. for people to use, and will provide the fuel (most will offer to pay the fuel, if they can't afford it they shouldn't be flying), and I won't charge anything.

However, since they have to join the club, I guess that means they are paying for someone to teach them after all..

In fact, no one is going to make a living at that, most will have a full time job. And I agree with RCCC. It is hard to get someone at the field on short notice, when you suddenly have some free time. But that can even happen with a paid instructor, they are usuall not available 24 hours a day. But, I have already setup a time for tomorrow with someone to help them out. He has no plane, and I will teach him on my plane until he gets confident, then he can buy his own plane.

But can you really teach someone to fly in just one hour?

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Paid instructor - 12/29/2001 4:36:34 AM   
rccc


 

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Magnum,

Thank you for agreeing... I like to hear that. I make my wife repeat it when she every once in a while tells me i'm right!

Question: "But can you really teach someone to fly in just one hour?"
Answer: No, but you get a little bit each time you do it.

If I teach someone skiing for 6 hours straight, that's probably 5 that are wasted. I've burned them out and they're just following the leader. We all need down-time to percieve the concepts we've been shown. It's also why kids don't go to school for 8 full hour days and why we all have vacations. They/we need to grasp the concepts.

RCCC
Niagara Falls, NY

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