RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine !  
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RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/1/2005 9:35:18 PM   
Willdo


 

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From: Auckland, NEW ZEALAND
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cu. in.

My point is this, if the additional cost drives this engine into the price range of a 60 to 80 cc engine, then why not just buy a 60-80 cc air- cooled engine instead?


Maybe because 60 - 80cc engines are too bulky for a scale model with a slim frontal area?
Others (not me) may be rich and probably just like them because they're different!

(in reply to cu. in.)
       Post #: 26

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/1/2005 10:26:01 PM   
cu. in.


 

Posts: 289
Joined: 4/25/2002
From: Birchwood, MN, USA
Status: offline 		When I look at the picture of the engine in post #1, the water jacket looks slim but there is a coolant hose fitting sticking out of the side. This adds to the engine's width. The engine is side exhaust, so the exhaust manifold pipe will also add to the width.

Here's some data from two engines that I own. The cylinder fin width (excluding exhaust port) for a ZDZ 60 is 2.9" or 73.66 mm. The cylinder fin width for a ZDZ 80 is 3.1" or 78.74 mm.

Bruce

(in reply to Willdo)
       Post #: 27

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/2/2005 6:17:48 AM   
Willdo


 

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Joined: 7/31/2003
From: Auckland, NEW ZEALAND
Status: offline 		Remember though, (as someone mentioned earlier) that you have to take into account the size of the cooling air duct up front for aircooled engines, ( looks horrible on a Mustang, Spitfire etc.) - but what's the harm in something new? - I can remember when a lot of people were a bit dubious about using liquid cooling in motocross bikes and karts, and they took a lot of convincing, but now it's universal!
By the way, I'm just as happy with aircooled engines where appropriate! - they look good as well

(in reply to cu. in.)
       Post #: 28

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/2/2005 8:22:51 AM   
Rcpilot


 

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From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Can you imagine a huge P-38 with twin water - cooled engines and having the radiators in the scale locations?

I don't know much about the P-38, but I do know it has scoops on the tail sections. Were those for the superchargers or radiators?

That would be cool to mount the radiators in the tail and duct it out the rear.

Maybe they can come up with smaller radiators that will fit into those smaller places--but use 2 of them instead of 1 big one. It could be an option to have radiators built to custom sizes or maybe at least several different sizes to chose from. Then you could install 2 or 3 small radiators in the scale places if you wanted too.

I think it's cool as heck. New technology and advancement for the hobby is GOOD.

As mentioned earlier--you could have a nice tight cowl wrapped around the engine on a Mustang or Spit and have the radiators located elsewhere.

Cost? Who cares. If you NEED it or you WANT it and can AFFORD it--then do it!!!

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       Post #: 29

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/2/2005 11:38:16 AM   
Flypaper 2



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From: Kingston, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		One other point is that liquid cooled engines run much quiter than air cooled as the water jacket dampens the combustion noise. Fins amplify it like a drum.

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       Post #: 30

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/2/2005 11:53:42 PM   
DKjens



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Joined: 2/10/2002
From: Pasadena, CA, USA
Status: offline 		To me, water cooling our engines, exept for if ducting is a problem, does not make sense. It makes no sense to compare our model engines with real airplane engines and their complexity. Until somebody makes a 2-stroke gasoline engine with a reduction drive, we are more or less stuck at making roughly 1 HP per 10cc. The direct drive on all our engines determines the max rpm, which is between 5000 and 7000 rpm for the 50cc to 200 cc engines. Two-stroke engines in race bikes, ultralights, etc. are all allowed to rev much higher, and therefore makes 2 and 3 times more horsepower per volume than our typical DA/3W/ZDZ engines. A 2-stroke engine can only pump its own volume of the cumbustible mixture, per 1 revolution, and is therefore more or less direct dependant on the rpm it runs at for making power. It would make much better sense to start designing 4-stroke engines in place of these 2-strokes, since a 4-stroke engine can much easier be cammed to develop best HP/Torque at the 5-7k rpm limit we have.
DKjens

(in reply to Flypaper 2)
       Post #: 31

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/3/2005 3:21:57 AM   
Rudeboy



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From: Bejing, BELGIUM
Status: offline 		It is not SO long ago I saw some people using chainsaw gas engines in the big planes during a show. Most people declared them nuts... why would anyone want to build an airplane so big and then power it with a modified chainsaw...? Tsss, crazy people...

And as for liquid cooling not making sense: there are people that will buy and try just about anything if it is expensive and "cool" enough. You can bet on the fact that when this thing hits the market, you will see people using it in planes that don't "need" it.

Other than that, I think it is nice advertising. People don't "need" radial four stroke engines either, and still there are companies building them. OS didn't do it because it was necessary, they did it to show off their engineering abilities. The same goes for superchargers, flat fours and Wankel engines.
MVVS wants to establish a name for themselves (other than making "cheap" glow engines), and this is the sort of thing that makes front pages. And it works... just look at this thread...

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       Post #: 32

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/3/2005 3:54:36 AM   
Willdo


 

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Status: offline 		DKjens,
Yes, you make a lot of sense in what you are saying, but whatever way you are going to go, there will be extra cost involved. - A fourstroke will always be more complicated, heavier and of course more costly than an equivalent two stroke, but will it be more complicated, heavier and more costly than a high revving two stroke with a reduction drive unit?
As you say, a four stroke of course can be "cammed" to produce good torque at lower revs, and a two stroke can be ported to do something similar. but it's always a compromise between high end and low end power.

I do agree that a reduction drive would be a good answer, - give the little beasts their head ( both two stroke and fourstroke) and let them produce some decent horsepower, - then you could use smaller capacity engines ( of smaller physical size and weight making up for the weight of the reduction drive).
Another spinoff from a reduction drive ( as well as being able to use a bigger more efficient prop) is that the propeller shaft can be positioned on the engine in such a location that it will in effect make the frontal area much less, - and of course, liquid cooling would become a much more viable arrangement for cooling high performance engines.

All pie in the sky? - maybe.

Update :- RUDEBOY you've got it!




< Message edited by Willdo -- 6/3/2005 4:38:17 AM >

(in reply to DKjens)
       Post #: 33

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/3/2005 4:51:55 AM   
Flypaper 2



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From: Kingston, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Still havn't figured out why someone hasn't built a four stroke with the prop shaft driven off a heavier camshaft. A two to one reduction drive allready in the engine, and sitting in the middle of the engine instead of the end. Oh to be fourty years younger

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       Post #: 34

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/3/2005 7:27:57 AM   
Willdo


 

Posts: 500
Joined: 7/31/2003
From: Auckland, NEW ZEALAND
Status: offline 		FLYPAPER,
There was a boxer twin glow engine made a few years ago, which used the camshaft as a prop shaft, I think it may have been made in Germany, but I can't remember what company produced it, no doubt someone will come up with an answer.
The shaft was heavier and supported in two large bearings and was situated on top of the crankcase.
However, in this case you would not get the reduction in frontal area you could achieve with a single.

Maybe I should stick to the subject, which was the water cooled MVVS engine

(in reply to Flypaper 2)
       Post #: 35

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/3/2005 8:33:41 AM   
wiscmodeler


 

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/30/2004
From: Madison, WI, USA
Status: offline 		The cooling radiators for the P-38 Lightning were in the chin scoops under the engines. The oil coolers were in the tail booms. The radiators for the liquid cooled engine would work nicely in the scale location for the P-38 Lightning.

(in reply to Willdo)
       Post #: 36

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/3/2005 10:48:29 PM   
Strykaas



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Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Paris, FRANCE
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quote:

The radiators for the liquid cooled engine would work nicely in the scale location for the P-38 Lightning.


This is it, that is the "cool" factor, and it is enough to justify selling such engines... Models are here to mimick real ones, after all...
At least that's what many modellers are waiting for.

In addition to that, designing/building this new MVVS is really no hassle compared to those Geminis and radial 4-strokers (this is my opinion, I'm perhaps wrong), so why not ?

Lookin' forward to seeing them on the field ...


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       Post #: 37

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/4/2005 3:04:35 AM   
dragoonpvw



Posts: 771
Joined: 4/16/2002
From: Mount Dora, FL, USA
Status: offline 		This is a perfect engine for many warbird apps, in fact it is perfect for the warbirdpropdrive variable pitch prop system. http://warbirdpropdrives.com/30601.html , That setup could have a problem with cooling to the motor behind all the mechanics. It is easy to put the radiator in an inconspicuous place. Weight means nothing, most warbirds need the weight up front and the little extra is nothing. No overheating problems, baffle setups, inlet /outlet size. Small size, extra power and more reliability. Yes the cooling system has a higher mtbf but I would bet it pales to the amount of lean run, overheating failures. No pie in the sky, just intelligent people looking for intelligent solutions.
I am trying to get one as of now and will see if it will go in my Yellow Spit, the position of the water pump is a blow though and this is the first time I have seen this angle, we will see.
good luck
Paul

< Message edited by dragoonpvw -- 6/4/2005 3:08:25 AM >

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       Post #: 38

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/4/2005 5:06:47 AM   
cu. in.


 

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From: Birchwood, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Willdo,

Bomo B20DTP - produced by Bomo Flugmotoren GmbH in Germany. The specs are 20cc. 48 oz (1360 gm), 5,900 RPM on a 18-10 prop, 4,700 RPM on a 22-10 prop. Cost was $699.00 USD from Jim Gerard.

New technology that was unsuccessful.

Bruce

(in reply to Willdo)
       Post #: 39

RE: New liquid cooled gas aero engine ! - 6/4/2005 5:50:11 AM   
Rudeboy



Posts: 3256
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From: Bejing, BELGIUM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Strykaas

...

In addition to that, designing/building this new MVVS is really no hassle compared to those Geminis and radial 4-strokers (this is my opinion, I'm perhaps wrong), so why not ?

Lookin' forward to seeing them on the field ...



You might be surprised... MVVS is really innovating these days... Cast magnesium cases and such... They may just give DA and 3W a run for their money...

Building a radial isn't that much of a problem... after all, OS took existing cilinders and pistons to develop their radial.
There was a guy in Holland (he has passed away about 10 years ago, sadly) that built an aircooled supercharged 18 cilinder double row four stroke radial from scratch... it can be done. It is just not very commercial in a direct point of view... you will not get rich by building radials. But like I said before, for an engine building company, it is nice advertising.


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Revver Brother #33
...I think it needs more power...

(in reply to Strykaas)