RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe  
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/25/2005 2:23:36 PM   
kamakasi



Posts: 405
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: butternut, WI, USA
Status: offline 		The reason I kept my AMA membership was to fly in sanctioned contests. Now I'm out of the contest loop so no AMA. My home owners will deal with it. (I hope "it" never happens)

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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/25/2005 6:44:41 PM   
SoCal GliderGuider


 

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: SoCal, CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

maybe this thread should be in the AMA forum


I don't think so. The AMA form is too one sided and does not "touch" most other flyers as they don't intentionally visit the forum.

When the particulars under discussion directly affect a particular section of the hobby, rc sailplanes, then the discussion needs to be left in that forum.

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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/25/2005 6:58:18 PM   
SoCal GliderGuider


 

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From: SoCal, CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gow589

Because of AMA we have clubs, flying fields, contest, large groups of organized people who have helped everyone involved grow into what the hobby is today. Without the AMA models airplanes would have been a "Science kit" bought fom the toy store. You can't begin to understand the aircrtaft, groups, contest, and everything else which has developed because of an "Organization" which has grouped people together for years. As far as the rest of your argument, It just doesn't make any sense!

Without AMA you wouldn't have a park flier nor 30% extra's or even jets. One off experimentals but not an industry around them.



Not exactly. Most of the participants in the "Save the Frequencies Crusade" were employees of the major radio manufacturers at that time. The radio manufacturers have a lot to loose as well as the multimillion dollars the AMA brings in. In fact it is this feet in the mud attitude about frequencies that forced the refinement of spread spectrum. Don't need no stinkin' freq pins with SS!!!

Free flight and RC aircraft were never sold under the "Blow Up The Kitchen" science kit category. Poor comparison. Search for and read Frank Zaic's bio.

I do have to admit that the AMA is directly responsible for the park fliers of today (as has been pointed out). Go to any AMA locked up power club (and a few sailplane clubs) and see how arrogant some (most?) of the member/flyers can be. It's not the $58 or $65 per year that drives the potential flyer away. Add in the coercive nature of the AMA membership and whammo!



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       Post #: 53

RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/25/2005 9:34:44 PM   
littlecrankshaf



Posts: 2135
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoCal GliderGuider
The AMA form is too one sided and does not "touch" most other flyers as they don't intentionally visit the forum.



I guess you are right...there is a much more diverse view here

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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/25/2005 11:02:32 PM   
Rick K


 

Posts: 260
Joined: 11/16/2003
From: Fontana, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello Guys, well well, judging by the number of people viewing this topic alot have more then a passing interest in it. I wonder why not one AMA officer or spokesperson has made any comment in regard to my question whatsoever . . . Some of them must have read or (should have?) been reviewing this site would not one think? Or perhaps is it as I have felt and some others here have expressed that they (AMA powers to be) feel that they just don't need to . . . that maybe, you think we're not perhaps 'worthy' of their regard?

I'd sure like to see an accouting of the actual costs of past compensentation/payouts due to events involving us as a percentage of total losses incurred by the insurer providing our coverage involving our sector of the sport.


HELLO AMA, please provide us a number both of a dollar number and percentage cost reletive to the total payouts to claiments on behalf of all AMA members as a result of claims of harmed parties as a result of flyiers of non-powered models/Sailplanes . . . if any.

I'm not holding my breath for a response . . .
Rick K

(in reply to littlecrankshaf)
       Post #: 55

RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/25/2005 11:19:40 PM   
gow589


 

Posts: 674
Joined: 8/4/2004
From: evansville, IN, USA
Status: offline 		The guys with the AMA are smart enough not to get involved here. They do watch as seen from some of the editorials. They touch on stuff, which was at the very least hashed out here in detail. There are too many people here who would argue over the color of the moon and just cannot begin to see or understand the big picture. It would be an impossible task for them to enter the discussions here.

Too many people are ready to talk trash about something they are not even involved in rather then come up with any better solutions. It would be a lot more honorable to create a different solution then to talk trash about the AMA. There are thousands of people in the AMA and in clubs across our nation who volunteer their time and energy to make it all work. To bad mouth them (which is who the AMA is) is less than honorable. If you don't think it is the best way to do so, you have the power to become part of it or to start something else as an alternative. Sitting in a lazy boy and badmouthing without any real intent of finding better solutions would be the opposite of honorable. If you like sports, the unsportsman-like player is the one who wins by hurting his opponent, not by playing better than his opponent. It's kind of the same thing! If your not part of it and don't want to be a part of it, why would you care!

(in reply to Rick K)
       Post #: 56

RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/26/2005 1:37:13 AM   
SoCal GliderGuider


 

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: SoCal, CA, USA
Status: offline 		The best "solution" to the AMA may be No AMA. It's the local flyers themselves that make or break that areas RC flying. They could all be members in the local health club. Should that health club get the honors for their diligent hard work? If not then why should the AMA try to take or get that credit?

As to "bad mouthing"; that is just a perception dictated by your point of view. A poilitical discussion does have extreme opinions.

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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/26/2005 9:10:33 PM   
Rick K


 

Posts: 260
Joined: 11/16/2003
From: Fontana, CA, USA
Status: offline 		My, my . . . A little testey huh? I often wonder when tough, difficult to answer questions are posed why some whom wish to evade the issue immediately start screaming personal 'attack' I have posed no attack or disrespectful messege to any person. I only asked for explanation/justification. The fact that no AMA offical has taken the time to respond or justify their policys just goes to reinforce my point . . . to whit: An arrogant disregard to face reasonable questions or . . . perhaps, to evade..

To those who fail to understand my comparision to auto insurance: Gee, I guess we should all pay the same rate, no matter what we drive or how. I suppose it'd be ok with you to have, as a safe driver to pay equally as the guy down the street who's racked up four DUIs, the kid with six citations for reckless driving or the 'Big-rig' trucker with a dozen or so mechanical saftey violations to his credit.

How about a reasonable respose?
Rick K

(in reply to gow589)
       Post #: 58

RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/27/2005 12:03:16 PM   
papermache



Posts: 690
Joined: 9/26/2002
From: Gary, IN, USA
Status: online 		Rick,

Your comparison with auto insurance would be a good one if there were similar numbers involved. Auto insurance can do what it does because there are hundreds of millions of drivers who need insurance. It is because of this huge base that auto insurance companies can offer the diversity of rates they do based on type of car, driver's record, etc., etc.

Not so with RC modeling. When you look at it, the time, energy and staffing it would take to implement a similar program to auto insurance, it would be cost prohibitive because there just isn't the demand for it. With a smaller customer base to draw from, rates would be way too high.

I have 15 gliders and 12 power planes. I can't imagine that insuring all of them would cost less than $58/year under the system you propose.

papermache

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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/27/2005 2:33:25 PM   
SoCal GliderGuider


 

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: SoCal, CA, USA
Status: offline 		The actual cost to the AMA for the insurance is about $15 per year per member. This includes ALL costs including any deductible that the AMA has to make up.

There is a "cost" of the set asides. This is an amount that is put into a dedicated account per schedule depending on what the disposition of the claim may be. This is where the $11 million in reserves (property and some cash) comes in.

So the $58 per year (hasn't this gone up?) is a good deal even when you have other liability insurance that may pay out first. Better if you don't. However there are still questions as to what gets paid and what doesn't.

If it were possible to separate sailplanes from the slimmers you could easily get a better rate because of the severity and frequency of the accidents slimmers (and now electrics) have. That "better" rate may be double that $15 the AMA pays as there are significantly fewer sailplaners than slimmers. Unless you have a sailplane fly into high tension lines and knock out the power to 100,000 homes on a Sunday morning.

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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/28/2005 1:39:07 AM   
erich44


 

Posts: 19
Joined: 11/14/2004
From: Holden, MA, USA
Status: offline 		Sorry to get off topic. But, a short question. What are slimmers?

erich

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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/28/2005 2:51:19 AM   
SoCal GliderGuider


 

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: SoCal, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Maybe it should be spelled slimers. If you have never had the pleasure of cleaning up a power plane running mixed fuel you really have no idea how much it's like cleaning up after a bucket full of snails. One 'm' or two it's just icky.

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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/28/2005 2:58:05 AM   
BMatthews



Posts: 8951
Joined: 10/4/2002
From: Burnaby, BC, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: erich44

Sorry to get off topic. But, a short question. What are slimmers?

erich


Glow fueled models. The oil residue inspired the appelation "slimer" and that was picked up quickly by the glider and electric flyers.



My own thought.... I think many of you are missing the fact that it's a precious few modelers that are glider ONLY. And even if we say we are many fly glow now and then. Not to mention the fact that I suspect that if a fast and heavy glider on final was to impact a person it would easily impale itself like a spear up to the wing in the soft tissue of most bodies. Rounded noses be danged. The impact point is of sufficiently small area that I'm pretty sure a modern glider would act like a fully functional spear at high approach speeds.



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(in reply to erich44)
       Post #: 63

RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe - 6/28/2005 5:27:48 AM   
SoCal GliderGuider


 

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: SoCal, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Most thermal gliders are at less than 15-20 mph on approach and landing. Average 34 to 68 ounces. With the long wings the mass is spread out quite a ways. While they have a rather concentrated nose there is no slice and dice steak knife weed whacker on it. Many times I've flown sailplanes up to myself and caught them in one hand. Do that with a power plane.

However IF the batteries go dead or other OOC (Out Of Control) condition occures they can punch through windshields and camper roofs IF straight in from a good height.

Then there is DS'ing. Dynamic Soaring. A trick of airflow over a rather sharp ridge results in a bit of back flow on the down wind side. Tight horizontal circles into the lift side then into the back flow can result in speeds over 200 mph in a 60 foot circle. One gnat up the nose can ruin your whole day and hundreds of dollars worth of specialized sailplane.

I do have a "Jones" for scale power. Maybe scale electric someday.

Still the $60 or so that gets you AMA insurance is still a good idea for most flyers. You can just avoid the political BS like the over 80% of the members that don't vote.

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