RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally

RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally
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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/29/2006 4:30 AM

Capt G

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Nice Video! Just started the painting process. This will take awhile.

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/29/2006 5:19 AM

aflipz

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that right aileron is purely due to prop torque, try a smaller prop (though your options are limited at that auw)

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/29/2006 5:30 AM

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Yeah it all comes back to the fact that I did a very poor job building and painting it. It was more the paint than the build that did me in. The right thrust helped a ton. It didn't need nearly as much right trim on the second flight. Red will be getting another order from me as soon as I can scrounge up the funds for another kit. For the time being I'll be able to fly this one which is fun. I've learned a TON building this thing and the fact that I didn't crash it the first time out is great

I was more scared I was gonna loose the $250+ of electronics in the thing that I was the foam lol.

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/30/2006 6:23 AM

c/f

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Nice job and flight report LOST,

Heres the Miss TideI video of mine:

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=miss-hangar-one-10mb-tide

After much trevail on adding all that weight for hard surface protection, I flew avoiding hardsurface until I came up with the ultimate lightweight solution:

< Message edited by c/f -- 1/30/2006 6:24 AM >

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/30/2006 6:48 PM

Matt14x

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Thanks for the armored tapr idea C/F. I"m going to use regular masking tape painted with CA. I'm too lazy to order the right stuff

LostSoul
You got me worried about the krylon H20 because that is what I also used, so I cut a one ft. sq. of fff (pink) and painted it red on both sides. Befor=28g After 30g I can live with that.

My set up weight--14 oz. withoud sponson protection

motor-Himax 2808 1160
esc--Electrify 25
prop--apc slowfly 9X3.8
batt.--t.p. 1320 11.1 vdc

I'm waiting for a low wind, low humid day to maiden mine.

I'm very thankful for the maiden flight threads you and AfLIpZ wrote. They gave me MUcH confidenca.

Matt

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/30/2006 9:20 PM

L0stS0ul

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You must have managed to get it on thin. The h20 cans I had were just chucking latex on the boat.

14oz is quite heavy. Mine came in at 15.55oz as I was walking out the door. I managed to carve .26 oz of weight out in foam but had to add .4 oz of clay weight to the nose to get the CG 1 inch from the spar. A whole 1/2 inch to far back. It would have taken almost an ounce of clay to get the CG to 1/2 inch from the spar.

One thing I learned from this build... DO NOT paint anything in the rear of the boat

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/30/2006 10:39 PM

Matt14x

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LostSoul

you might think about replacing all the control surfaces with unpainted foam .

Is the yellow paint on your bird also H20. I can"find yellow here??

Matt

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 12:30 AM

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Hey matt, Not a bad idea. I had not thought of doing that. I think I have enough spares to do it. It already looks like crap. Can't make it look any worse right lol

Yea it's H20 yellow. They had yellow, green, red, and orange at Michaels.

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 12:31 AM

aflipz

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lostsoul, you can aslo try this; remove the nose weight and try to shim or extend the motor mount by 1/4 to 1/2 inch in the lightest possible way, moving the weight of the motor a little further in front of the cg point sometimes restores the ballance.

Also i flew it once with the cg a little too far behind (about 1/4 inch back of recomendations) with no serious stability problems, the only nuisance is that the tail drops a lot in a turn. still, i was able to have quite a bit of fun flying it this way and didn't encounter any flying characteristics my thumbs couldn't handle.

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 12:52 AM

aflipz

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rattle can painting tip; allways shake the can for a really really long time before applying. As the pigment deposits at the bottom of the can, if you didn't shake it enough the paint comes out mixes with less thinner and is therefore thicker and heavier. It allso sputters a lot during application.

My 2nd build will be painted in extremely thin coats with an airbrush using more thinner than paint, in order to cover the surface using the least pigment possible. This way you can "dust" some pigment on until the desired tint is obtained, and you know their isn't a thick crust on there because thinner evaporates and adds no weight at all. To describe the finished product; instead of a thick layer of overlaping pigments you end up with millions of little "pixels" of color 0n a white background (such as a plain mho) These "pixels" will appear to the naked eye as a solid color just lighter than the liquid paint itself. Such a thin application should't even show up on a scale, unless your scale is acurate enough to be used by a precious metals (or drug) dealer... I will push this even further, and not cover the entire mho with color, but leave a lot white and just add some graphics on a white background instead. I will paint the cf rods solid white after assembly so they don't show through my thin graphics though.

previously i mentionned microballoons and epoxy skin as a possible skid reinforcement; it's good to fix dents and dings, but it cracks instead of flexing when it strikes hard objects and therefore needs to be re-done every time it is run on a rough surface. The good news is you are only removing existing cracked material and replacing it every time, so no added weight over what it was before. And the repairs only take a few minutes with fast epoxy. Knowing what i know now i would increase the ratio to more than 3 parts microballoons and 1 part epoxy for these repairs as it seems to be less brittle and more spongy when mixed with more mb's.

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 1:04 AM

Matt14x

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Lost
Another idea...Remove the top horizontal stab. and elevator. and fly it. You can always replace it with an unpainted one. Also, cut designs and inlay them unpainted in your bird,boat,whatever. Heck , it might even look good!111

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 1:25 AM

Matt14x

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Aflipz
I found that if I smoothen the epoxy-baloon mix with your finger dipped in isopropyl alcohol makes it softer and smoother.
Thanx fou the your maden report.

Matt

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 1:30 AM

c/f

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DONT MOVE THE MOTOR FORWARD for balance compensation.

The hydro foam went thru a a month long reverse engineering excersize by many world wide in another popular forum ever since the Ernest Butler video appeared.

It was almost three weeks of many undesirable designs trying to perform in water,land,sea,air flight performance. Some had as much as 10 degrees up thrust just to lift off.

Ernest Butler then dropped this tid bit of info that in the perfect design, the motor is zero zero thrust angles, AND prop thrust line would be right on the c/g in height and distance. BAM this was the ticket, this is why the HANGAR ONE accels over every other design, the motor is the closest to both height and distance to c/g than any other design out there.

When you see third tails,(motor was moved forward to compensate for tail weight) high mounted engine pods, obscene thrust angles required, you know some part of the flight envelope ends up suffering for it. The C/G is tricky and must be done with the build, but you will be rewarded with a great flying hydro .

On my second build I set out to overcome the c/g and boy did I, now I'm right on the spar using a 20 gram littleScreamer and a 3s 730 Pro Lite, AND I use a fourth servo for each rudder, tricks I used to get me here:

MOVED BATTERY as far forward by keeping prop line as designed but designing nose cocpit to be up to prop and battery as far forward as possible inside.

NEVER paint rear 1/3 of boat other than a few highlites ie #'s, or sharpie artwork. (I warned many on my first build thread.)

Replaced c/f struts with Spectraline differant angles , REALLY a much better design.

C/F pushrods and c/f horn/kuckle control. NO PLYWOOD or metal or screws, or adjusment.

Used .007 for horn surface stiffening, used 1mm c/f roundstock on Rudder Leading edges.

Spectra hinges and Gorrila Glue 35 in total.

Bidi and Rhino skin on rear fin protection only 1' wide.

In the end I preffer 3/4"from spar c/g for 3D batics, 1/2" is nicer for no 3D, On the spar requires extended takeoff speeds and length. (Adding up just plants the rear into the ground increasing drag). I ended up using a prop adapter, (I always glue props on) which moved the prop forward, but then I was able to move the motor back, thus putting prop in same location as before adapter, thus getting c/g to 1/2" mark. Then I melted the foam At my battery spot mounting more rearward from nose to get me @ 3/4". I'm pretty glad with the flexibility of c/g now to use any of my other battery choices from the 730, 910, 1320 all Pro Lites.

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 1:53 AM

aflipz

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thanks for the info on motor placement, i had no idea it could have that great an impact, on a typical parkflyer it doesn't make that much of a difference, but this is no typical parkflyer...

Tell me more about cg, when you say height do you mean that when you hold it by the prop shaft the airfoil should hang perfectly vertical? If so i will have to modify the cockpit to fit the battery pack higher up towards the motor mount as it isn't the case right now. Still flies very well, and it's pretty easy to keep inverted. That being said i am allways willing to put effort in improving a plane's performance, more so with this one!

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 2:08 AM

wave waker

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newbie with electric i'm more on nitro but i'm building miss hangar now, lots of info. here but still got questions..

any baterry and charger recommendation?... i'm using thunder power 3 cell lipo and still looking for back up.

also looking for a decent radio transmitter that incase i'll goin to venture heli and plane in the future i don't need upgrade??..thanks

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losi,warhead,dirtbike,,HTB360-2 ,HS Dumas,Nitro hammer, H&M Tunnnel,hydrofoamie,nomadio sensor,cat31,OB SW36

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 2:51 AM

L0stS0ul

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I have heard of some people having trouble with the LS PP motors with the Phoenix 10. Getting it dialed in can be challenging. I bought the CoolRunnings A-12 Speed Controller and that thing is amazing. I think I might start switching away from Castle speed controllers in all my planes.

I did end up cutting up the deck. If you cut up the deck to reduce weight remember that you must cover those cuts back up with tape or something else. While it worked and helped in my situation I didn't cover them back up and the tail sagged the entire flight. Once I covered up the holes the boat flew much better.

As far as a decent transmitter goes I HIGHLY recommend the Futaba 7CHP. I like not having the ratcheted throttle on the transmitter. It's a wonderful transmitter and I fly my Blade CP with it. I got mine for $179 from AllErc.com. Wonderful site to buy from and I highly recommend them.

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< Message edited by L0stS0ul -- 1/31/2006 2:53 AM >

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 2:51 AM

c/f

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In height, I mean that the prop shaft is as close to the main deck in a vertical plane, and the prop shaft is as close to the c/g mark in the fore/aft plane.

So if you add third rudders most kits just move the motor forward to compensate, not good.

The height off the deck is also a compromise in prop ground clearances, thus why some gigantic pod mounts, also not good.

These hydro s in the 10-15 ounce range generally have powerplants that weigh around 20 grams, put out 17-22 ounces of thrust, using 10-14 amps power on 3s batteries weighing in between 1.5-3 ounces. AND the preffered ESC controller is hands down the http://coolesc.com, 12 amp controller. When these gems finally become mainstream Castles goose is cooked!!!!!

As for power 22 ounces has been reported on a Strongs HFM motor, using the GWS 7X3.5 HD, prop, I have this combo and in two minutes I can swap out motors but this is my least desirable combo for 3D hoverbatics, its strange but its like going thru 7 gears to get there.

I currently preffer a LitteScreamer Denova using an APC 8X3.8 prop, it pulls 12.6 amps, 136 watts static on a 3S730 TP/PL, but put in a 3S910 TP/PL, and it will jump to 153 watts 14.6 amps static. Motor or battery are fine for now but its 55deg outside.

Then I can swap out to a LittleScreamer "AIR TUNED" custom and using a 3S1320 TP/PL and an APC4.75X4.75 it will run static 30 amps, 300 watts, 30K rpms, WOW , I'm truly amazed how it works in the air without any motor or battery heat. It AIR TUNED as it is supposed to be never run static, however I've done it using my 80MPH leaf blower as external cooling for a brief momnet to see it on a watt meter.

< Message edited by c/f -- 1/31/2006 2:55 AM >

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 1/31/2006 2:56 AM

L0stS0ul

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C/f you got that right. CoolRunnings all the way. While people are complaining about their Phoenix 10 speed controllers heating up my A-12 is always cool to the touch. I love the simple programming mode it has, so much easier. And don't get me started on the motor cut off switch. Makes those accidental throttle bumps a thing of the past. The throttle responce is so smooth it's crazy. Does it sound like I love this controller lol. Plus their service is more than amazing.

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 2/1/2006 2:30 PM

way2fast

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I just got my kit and it seems to be a bit different from any of the pictures I've seen. My main problem is with this motor, I can't figure out how to mount it onto the wooden support. Plus I have two gears one of which is too small to fit on anything I got in my kit. I suppose I must be missing something or just don't understand. Any help as to how to get this motor on the plane would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 2/1/2006 4:51 PM

way2fast

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oops, probably should have mentioned that the motor ia a BM2408-21

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 2/1/2006 6:16 PM

Capt G

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Her's what I got so far... 8 oz. without servos, battery, etc. Little Screamer!

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 2/2/2006 5:08 PM

aflipz

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What's the strongest wind that you guys feel comfortable flying this thing in? I love it so much i don't want to face too many dangers with it, but i don't want to pass up flying opportunities for nothing. So far i really haven't flown it in winds past 5-7mph... such low winds don't seem to bother it at all but i still don't feel comfortable taking it out in 10-12mph winds, should i?

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 2/2/2006 6:00 PM

Matt14x

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Aflipz

Sorry I can"t answer that, I haven"t flown mine yet. I fuond that the wind is more effective on cold, humid, clowdy days. I went flying on one of these days, and my 3d foam ies were flying slow-motion.
I will make a indoor,outdoor amp. check one of these days.

I have a few questions:
The manual states."Set 1/2" travel on all surfaces on low rate, and as much as we can get on high." We cannot get much mare on high rate because they hit each other. My questiou is. Do we restrict rudde or elevator travel tc correct this??

Also; What is the weight and dischard rate of a 920 ma. Li-Po batt.

Thanks Matt

PS.
I can"t fly 3d. I just like to fly 3d foam ies on low rate.

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 2/2/2006 6:12 PM

aflipz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt14x

Aflipz

...

I have a few questions:
The manual states."Set 1/2" travel on all surfaces on low rate, and as much as we can get on high." We cannot get much mare on high rate because they hit each other. My questiou is. Do we restrict rudde or elevator travel tc correct this??

Also; What is the weight and dischard rate of a 920 ma. Li-Po batt.

Thanks Matt

no you don't have to, on the high rates the rudder and elevator can touch, but it won't happen, even then as cf said it's fine, the depron flexes and it's not even enough stress to stall the servos. No problem there.

as for rates, my rudder moves an inch in both directions i'd say, i just eyeball these things anyway. The elevons move quite a bit. I'm not done finding it's perfect settings but it's pretty easy to maneuver. I think you'll find yourself doing 75 degree harriers across the park and turn while maintaining high alpha. They are so smooth they are allmost hands off... I am amazed. My other planes are grounded.

which brand model pack are you talking about?

< Message edited by aflipz -- 2/2/2006 6:13 PM >

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RE: Hydro-Foam by Michael Connally - 2/2/2006 6:28 PM

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Matt, I think there are different 'c' (discharge rate) ratings on lipo packs I don't think you can just tell by the ma of it. Mine is a 3 cell 1100ma 10-12c so 10 amps to 12 amps discharge rate (someone correct me if i'm wrong about that)

I also have a question though, my hydro foam weighs 13ounces dead and wouldn't take off with a rewound 22.7 mm brushless outrunner and a 9x4 prop ( I rewound it myself with 26 gauge wire and 14 turns on a 12 tooth stator) so i thought i had made the motor very torquey as it wasn't even getting warm! so i fitted a 10x7 prop and it flew along the ground very fast. So then i tried a take off and it flew up in the air only for me to lose control and crash it nose first breaking a sponson off!!

Anyway it is all fixed now and ready to go again, but what i need to know is will I ruin the battery, by running it with too big a prop? as the motor is now getting warm but it does seems to pull the hydro up nicely. The battery is a 1100 3 cell 10-12c and I have a 30amp esc the motor is a 12 tooth stator 14turn outrunner anyone have any ideas?

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