MAAC - Whats the Problem?

MAAC - Whats the Problem?
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MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/20/2005 7:35:01 PM

Doug Burt

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: West Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Status: offline

As a long time visitor to the RCU site I've been growing increasingly concerned over the bad rap that we're giving our national aeronautic association. Finally, in desperation I've actually registered in order to participate.

As a member of any organization you have the power to make reforms and changes, but in order to do so you have to bite the bullet and volunteer. There are many volunteers in our organization who work very hard and gain little consideration for our overall efforts.
These efforts are challenging enough as we all try and please everyone, to say nothing of the time and effort we and our families put into making the whole organization a working entity.

Its much easier to get on-line and complain about the status quo of MAAC in an international on-line forum dedicated to the organization, instead of making your voice heard where it counts. In your local club, at your local Annual General Zone meetings or if you're lucky enough at the MAAC Annual General Meeting.

I see many here who have worked for the organization both currently and in the past participating in these Forums, but also note that many of the preconceived biases still exist, both on an East vs. West and in the Competition vs. Non-Competition arena. I believe that we would all be better served if we exercise our voices where they can do the most good instead. The "I just want to fly" mentality that prevails at a good many clubs is alive and at work here too...

Doug Burt
MAAC Electric Com. Chairman
Asst. ZD (BC)

_____________________________

I'll say no to glow and I'll pass on gas...
"Spittin Sparx forever"

Post #: 1

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/20/2005 11:18:06 PM

Sharpy01

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

I see where you're coming from Doug and yes, we all have our personal areas of focus.

I have an idea of the amount of work you have put in and I'm glad you chose to participate.

Personally, I believe any open discussion is potentially more beneficial than silence. I understand the notion that you must get involved at your local club level and on up the ladder, but the fact of the matter is, unless you get the attention of a much larger swath of the national membership, you will not effect any change. That's the way the system is set up. Forums and internet are one of the best vehicles for getting information out and, maybe more importantly, ferret out the BS to correct misinformation. Folks on both sides of issues here are here for the same reason;

....to try and win wider support for change ...............or maintain the status quo.

(in reply to Doug Burt)

Post #: 2

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 12:31:09 AM

Hughes500E

Posts: 1070
Joined: 11/23/2002
From: Armstrong, BC, CANADA
Status: online

I've been growing increasingly concerned over the bad rap that we're giving our national aeronautic association.

Amen to that!
I'm sure everyone knows my position here but, I am trying to approach the subject with more meaning.
Tough one, friends!

(in reply to Sharpy01)

Post #: 3

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 1:37:00 AM

britbrat

Posts: 3299
Joined: 6/15/2004
From: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hughes500E

I'm sure everyone knows my position here but, I am trying to approach the subject with more meaning.

I, for one, don't know what your position is --- what is it?

(in reply to Hughes500E)

Post #: 4

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 4:34:30 AM

Sharpy01

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

Bad Rap?

Just curious, but where are we getting this "rap"? I have friends who fly on both sides of the border and around Canada and for the most part, aside what we may discuss, most are oblivious.

Most of those with interest from this side of the border have been pleased that at least some of the issues are being raised and getting out in the open. Aside from the few notables, that follow me around in the cyberworld, the VAST majority have been positive about open discussion.

(in reply to Hughes500E)

Post #: 5

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 4:59:50 AM

Doug Burt

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: West Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Status: offline

When we start sniping at each other instead of being constructive leaves the whole organization with a position of being one that is disarray. By being open and having a positive discussion is a good thing...Trouble is I don't see that happening much after the first 5 or so posts. Because we're all passionate about our hobby/sport we take it personally and the sniping begins.

Don't try and kid yourself, I just re-read the past posts in this Forum and saw how long it took before it got personal. As for transparency as far as the organization sits I do believe that the information is there, its just a question of how deep you want to look to find it. Problem is most members don't want to have to do the work themselves and rely on the posts in Forums such as this, RCC and others including CEF for their information. Its easy to see how fast the issue can become clouded when no one actually has all the information at hand and personalities start to clash because one or the other doesn't see fit to accept another members point of view...

Doug

_____________________________

I'll say no to glow and I'll pass on gas...
"Spittin Sparx forever"

(in reply to Sharpy01)

Post #: 6

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 5:37:33 AM

Sharpy01

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doug Burt

When we start sniping at each other instead of being constructive leaves the whole organization with a position of being one that is disarray. By being open and having a positive discussion is a good thing...Trouble is I don't see that happening much after the first 5 or so posts. Because we're all passionate about our hobby/sport we take it personally and the sniping begins.

Don't try and kid yourself, I just re-read the past posts in this Forum and saw how long it took before it got personal. As for transparency as far as the organization sits I do believe that the information is there, its just a question of how deep you want to look to find it. Problem is most members don't want to have to do the work themselves and rely on the posts in Forums such as this, RCC and others including CEF for their information. Its easy to see how fast the issue can become clouded when no one actually has all the information at hand and personalities start to clash because one or the other doesn't see fit to accept another members point of view...

Doug

I don't disagree with anything you said here Doug. The only difference may be that my experience is that the organization is somewhat in disarray. It was when I was in the thick of it and has obviously continued beyond my tenure.

"I do believe that the information is there, its just a question of how deep you want to look to find it. Problem is most members don't want to have to do the work themselves and rely on the posts in Forums such as this, RCC and others including CEF for their information"

....100%, and all the more reason not to allow one forum or site to provide a monopolized opinion on information that members decide to seek.

(in reply to Doug Burt)

Post #: 7

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 2:56:58 PM

Jim_McIntyre

Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
... not to allow one forum or site to provide a monopolized opinion on information that members decide to seek.

Why seek information on an Internet forum?
What quality of information do you expect to see in an Internet forum?

Opinions, yes. Points of view, yes but, reliable information?

Your Zone director is there to answer your questions ... officially. That's one of their primary duties..... if they don;t have the answer, they are required to seek it form the board.

Any yahoo, including me can state their opinion here. They can even state their view of the world or how they feel it should be. Truth is, the content is reliable/useful for little else than entertainment. It's like asking for opinions at the field ... you often don't need to ask, you'll get a variety of quality, often from unqualified (but verbal) people, and many conflicting opinions that are often simply wrong....

_____________________________

http://scalebuilder.org

(in reply to Sharpy01)

Post #: 8

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 3:27:45 PM

Doug Burt

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: West Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Status: offline

Hey Sharpy01, Jim

You both bring valid points to the table and I agree with both points of view. I know that a number of past MAAC exec's have been vilified here and on other Forums because they had differing points of view. As a Committee Chair and Asst ZD I find I'm in the unenviable position of having to answer not only for past transgressions, but also the current ones. I find it increasingly difficult because members find out snippets of information from Forums such as this, which as Jim has nicely put it, "Truth is, the content is reliable/useful for little else than entertainment."

That being said it would be nice to see stuff posted on these and other boards about how to constructively help MAAC move into the 21st Century. I've watched as my committee grew astronomically over the past 5 years and watched how the "Park Flyer Syndrome" helped bring RC model flying back into urban centers. This has been a double-edged sword however as far as MAAC has been concerned as not many "parkies" want to join the organization, preferring instead to just go fly without the rules and reg's that are now being imposed on us at our fields and clubs.

As a Club President with over 300 registered members (of which some 170 are currently active) I find I spend too much time answering questions that shouldn't need answering because Sam or Joe read about it on the internet first and then decided that he/she needed clarification. When the contributors to these threads go way off topic, the members can't get the idea that these threads may or may not contain correct and accurate info and therefore the problems start...

Doug

_____________________________

I'll say no to glow and I'll pass on gas...
"Spittin Sparx forever"

(in reply to Jim_McIntyre)

Post #: 9

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 3:52:23 PM

britbrat

Posts: 3299
Joined: 6/15/2004
From: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doug Burt

------ "Truth is, the content is reliable/useful for little else than entertainment." ----- That being said it would be nice to see stuff posted on these and other boards about how to constructively help MAAC move into the 21st Century.

---- When the contributors to these threads go way off topic, the members can't get the idea that these threads may or may not contain correct and accurate info and therefore the problems start...

Doug

Finally

Thanks Doug. Maybe we are now getting somewhere.

(in reply to Doug Burt)

Post #: 10

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 5:14:01 PM

jhelps

Posts: 163
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Headingley, MB, CANADA
Status: offline

The recommendation to "Ask your ZD, for that is what they are there for ..." comes up quite regularly on these forums. I cannot imagine that a ZD would want ~1000 or so members calling and asking questions. I for one find it wrong that I would have to seek information on serious issues ( a "PULL" situation) as opposed to having the info sent to me (a "PUSH" situation). I don't suggest that ZD's come on forums such as this to answer each and every question. I do however suggest that once a question is asked of a ZD or the board, that both the question and answer are posted on a website for all to see. Before anyone suggests that the magazine is for that, in the past the board has intevened to remove contentious issues form the mag. In the past letters to the editor and ZD reports have not made it into the magazine.

In this electronic age where news is in your hands "as it happens", when nothing is forth coming it smacks of cover-up, and rumour and inuendo rush in to fill the information vacuum. When it becomes apparent that the BOD is at odds with each other (the insurance or lack there-of, issue) it quickly becomes food for Internet fodder. When a ZD walks out of the AGM with 1400 or so votes without explaination - questions begin to circulate. When BOD meetings are held "in camera" then people begin to wonder how things are really run. When the a majority of motions at the AGM are ruled out of order by the constitution committee (I for one do not understand why they do not review the motion prior to the AGM and go back to the zone that raised the item with suggested clarification allowing it to be voted on) forcing a one or more year wait for change, then people get very cinical. When the "corporation" is run by a number of "representatives" elected by the members and carying only the amount of votes in their zone, you get the worst combination of parlimentary and corporate government rolled into one. It is actually worse than that - in some instances the ZD ha a single vote, for example when voting for the executive. This regularly results in the complaint that a minority are setting the rules for the majority.

So overall I do support change to improve the governance for the organization. Perhaps limiting the term of ZD and president is a good idea. The suggestion continues to be raised that if people are not happy then they should get involved, however there is a "back room" political side to the current situation that tends to force newcomers to toe the party line. It takes very strong ZD's and presidents to buck this pressure - luckily there are still folks with integrity out there.

I apologize if the above doe not make much sense as I have a killer cold right now ... will likely review it later , say OH MY God!! and delete the whole thing!!!

JH

(in reply to britbrat)

Post #: 11

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 6:26:08 PM

Jim_McIntyre

Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

Interesting....

I submit that, as MAAC understands, all members do not have access to the Internet so, it is not the best vehicle for dissemination of this type of information to all members (although much is posted on the MAAC website).

Of course the magazine must maintain a certain politically correct presentation, as it is not only our communication "vehicle" but, a public relations publication as well.

Channels for discourse on "sensitive" issues are established. ZD's, committees, the exec etc. all publish contact information. I'll go so far as to say they go out of their way to accomodate my questions.

Your concern that thousands of people will contact ZDs is a known issue, that's why they have columns in the magazine to address the need to respond to issues of that volume.... in a politically correct format of course.

I can see where that answer might lead ... before asking, ask yourself when would it be appropriate to respond politically incorrectly?

But, lets get real (just for a moment ok?). Have you ever attended a zone meeting? I have, and collected proxies.... The membership involvement/concerns have certainly not been measured in triple digits nay of the times I've attended.

I can tell you than I have never had an issue with getting a prompt response from my ZD. On the occasion that he is unreachable, the MAAC office, or another ZD has been very responsive.

A word of advice if I may, before you criticise, be sure there really is a problem...

< Message edited by Jim_McIntyre -- 6/21/2005 6:27:26 PM >

_____________________________

http://scalebuilder.org

(in reply to jhelps)

Post #: 12

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 9:11:16 PM

jhelps

Posts: 163
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Headingley, MB, CANADA
Status: offline

Thanks for the advice Jim re criticising ... I always carefully consider what I post (unless I have a cold!!!).

I was a ZD for a bit less than a year (medical emergency in the family caused me to drop the job), and I have seen first hand that of which I speak, the late night phone calls, the meetings in corners,etc

It is well understood that most members do not have Internet access, but that is no excuse for not using that venue as a prime forum for information passage.

"Be sure there really is a problem" ... Couldn't agree more which is why some have repeadidly called for a survey/referendum of the membership be conducted to see what they want. Want some fun? Suggest that course of action on the other forum and wait for the responses!! There will be everything from it is impossible to properly form the questions thereby skewing the answers ... to "have you any idea what that would cost?" to veiled responses which suggest that the membership at large does not know what is best for them!!!

Try suggesting these three questions (Word them anyway you want):

Do you wish MAAC to continue to be the organization representing models who wish to compete internationally by maintaining MAACs association with the aeroclub of Canada at an annual cost of $$$ ?

Do you want any club or other organization which requests funding assistance to present MAAC with a detailed business case before hosting a national or international event with no exceptions and with a complete accounting afterwards?

Do you want to limit the term of members of the the BOD to 3 consecutive terms with a 2 year break in between?

Before you jump on me about my position on any of the above, I have my personnel opinion on each which may or may not go with the mainstream, however if a clearly worded question was answered by the majority against my thoughts I would accept it. The problem is that immediatley after suggesting the above the spin doctoring will begin. Indeed your term "politically correct" usually means big brother deciding what others can say and do regardless of what they really think.

Proxies are a disaster in that they can be used to vote for items raised from the floor at the meeting, indeed proxies and preplanning have been used to push contentious recommendations through AZM's. This is why I suggest that a better corporate model for MAAC needs to be developed.

Calling the ZD and asking for clarification usually results in a response not worth the paper it is written on ("Wait a minute you told me that ... no I didn't ... Yes you did ..."

. And then the phone calls would start (He told me this ... No!!! ... Yes!!!)

Anyway don't read fanatical ambition or radical call for change in any of the above. My position is simply MAAC can do better and should try to do so within the limitations of being a volunteer organization. I do however believe that there are some heavily entrenched positions and people that could do with a change. It is going to be really interesting to see what happens when the changes to our bylaws and other rules of procedure start being reviewed to come in line with Ontario law. There will be those who use the opportunity to try and push their own agenda's.

JH

< Message edited by jhelps -- 6/21/2005 9:17:35 PM >

(in reply to Jim_McIntyre)

Post #: 13

RE: MAAC - Whats the Problem? - 6/21/2005 9:41:00 PM