brianfuchs

My Feedback: (1)

I just received a set of Commando Bead Locs along with a new set of Big Joe 40-Series tires.

Here is how they looked in the bag:
[img][/img]
You are going to have to look at the attachments at the end of this post. Can someone tell me how to put the images where I want them??

Here is what the Commandos look like from the front:
[img][/img]

...and the back:
[img][/img]
Yup, there's a full 18 screws on EACH side of the wheel. Doing the math, that's a whopping total of 144 screws for a full set of 4 tires. More about that later...
One of the reasons these wheels are so expensive is shown in this picture. They provide TWO fully annodized and engraved aluminum rings per wheel. Even the inside rings are annodized - they must cost a fortune to manufactore. That may sound like a plus - after all, should the outer rings get scratched up, all you need to do is swap them. The rest of this review will explain how that will never actually happen...

Here's the bag of screws you get (half of them are missing from this photo, because they were used to build one wheel).
You get 76 screws per set of 2 wheels (leaving 4 spares).

Finally, here is what they look like assembled:
[img][/img]

Bottom line -- while the Big Joe's are awesome, the Commandos should be nicknamed Big Jokes. [&o]

The wheels have a MAJOR flaw in the design.

By now, I'm sure many people have read the product release that Pro-Line put out regarding the Commandos. If not, here's the link: [link]http://www.pro-lineracing.com/proline.html[/link] The Commandos are about half-way down on the page.

Other than the fact that these wheels look absolutely beautiful, why buy them? Because they are glueless, of course. And what does that imply? That we can use them again and again with different tires... At $35 a pair (TowerHobbies) they better be reusable...

Unfortunately, having fully assembled one wheel, I have come to the conclusion that Commandos are single-use wheels. [:@]

How can that be?

Well, let's look at how the wheels are shipped from the factory. They arrive with the lock rings temporarily held in place with two screws per ring. These screws aren't fully snugged ('snug' is a term Pro-Line likes to use instead of 'tight'). The first thing you are directed to do is remove these screws so the tires can be mounted. This is where the fatal flaw is first seen.

Here is a picture of a clean (unused) screw:
[img][/img]

Here is what the factory-installed screws look like after being removed:
[img][/img]
See that white stuff clinging to the screw teeth? That's your wheel -- your PLASTIC wheel.
Whether you use the same screw or a clean screw, that hole will never again grab the screw worth a damn. The plastic wheels simply can't handle a 4-40 screw multiple times. On top of that, the wheel holes aren't even threaded, so once we remove a screw after the first use, the remaining hole is just too large to ever be used reliably again. Don't believe me? Each ring of the assembled tire mysteriously has two screws that are fully stripped - they turn and turn but don't catch. Care to guess which two holes they are? As a further test, I removed one of the screwed that I installed. I put a clean one in and - sure enough - the hole was stripped out by the first screw. [sm=thumbdown.gif]

As I said - these wheels are one-time-use.

Now, I'm sure you love to build as much as me - that's one of the reasons we got into RC. Let me tell you, at 2 screws per minute (using an allen wrench - ProLine doesn't supply one), it took me about 20 minutes just to assemble one wheel. Using a nut driver, I could probably cut that down to 15 minutes. Why so long? Because you need to 'snug' each ring using TWO full revolutions - the first to sort of snug, and the second to finish the snugging. That essentially means we are tightening 72 screws per wheel. Take a look at that promotional material from Pro-Line again...I quote:

"...the non-gluing, super strong design allows you to interchange your tires with the turn of a 2.0mm allen wrench without having to buy new wheels. This makes your truck totally customizable in a short amount of time."

Jeeezus! I could REBUILD a whole set of shocks faster than I could change out tires on Commandos!

"The turn of an allen wrench"?!?!? Try about 1,000 turns of an allen wrench. Doesn't sound as nice, huh?

I keep mentioning 'snugging' because Pro-Line is extremely careful to warn you about over-tightening the rims. This is NOT to protect the tires from getting pinched - it is to protect the wheels from getting stripped. Well, I made my two revolutions on each side, and didn't feel the rings were tight enough (I could push down on the ring with my fingers and see the screw heads pop out a little). The problem is that the screws truly feel as if even 1/8th more turn will cause stripping. The tire is secure - I'm sure of that. 18 semi-tight screws hold these things in place. I just don't feel secure that these screws will stay if the wheels took some bashing.

One final warning about Commandos. I have an E-Maxx, and these wheels only come in the huge 23mm Hex format. This means you will NEED to buy $35 worth of adapters to use them on an E-Maxx. I SHOULD have known that, because Pro-Line SHOULD have mentioned it on their website. Unfortunately, they didn't. So, after paying $70 for wheels and $50 for tires, I find out I need to spend $35 more to actually USE them. Mind you, Pro-Line makes several glue-versions of their 40-Series wheels that are directly E-Maxx compatible.

My advice? Glue your darn wheels if you NEED 40-Series. Otherwise, everyone seems to love the Stormer Beadlocks (which only handle standard tires). I've never tried them, but SOMEHOW they manage to hold tires in place with only 5 screws per wheel.

Go figure...

I have E-mailed Pro-Line Customer Service with my complaint. TowerHobbies won't accept the Commandos back because I opened and assembled one. At this point, I just want to glue my Big Joes to inexpensive rims. I'll keep you informed about how Pro-Line handles the case. If I don't get a response by Thursday, I'll call them...

brushless

I thought the Maximizer beadlocks have 8 screws per wheel? How do the Maximizers hold up to continuous removing of the screws?


_____________________________

Check out www.killerhobbies.com Monster trucks, parts, & accessories.

brianfuchs

My Feedback: (1)

According to the Maximizer website, they offer a "5-hole system". This confused me. It actually referred to the number of bling-holes in the wheel itself. All Maximizers do in fact use 8 screws. Again, I haven't tried them.

I've done a little research on the Maximizers. A typical Maximizer wheel has 2 parts - the faceplate and the tube. If you use Pro-Line or Imex tires, you need two additional inner rings. The tube has a flange on the back that is a 'faceplate' for the back-side of the tire. The tube extends through the tire to the face, which is why there are no screws needed for the back of the tire. The portion of the tube that is seen from the face of the tire actually has the screw holes. The faceplate is basically a hubcap for the whole front-side of your tire. It has holes for the screws, but these are not threaded. So, the only part of the Maximizers that can get stripped out are the tubes.

Stormer makes both parts (faceplate and tube) in plastic, composite, and aluminum. I THINK these are the options for the systems:
Full Plastic set: $30 per 2 wheels
Plastic Replacement Tubes: $10/pair
Aluminum Faceplate & Composite Tube Set: $80 per 2 wheels (The aluminum faceplate alone sells for $40 EACH)
I don't see where you can buy Composite Replacement Tubes (what I call 'plastic' tubes may be composite).
Aluminum Tubes: $50/pair

A 'Set' includes 2 faceplates and 2 tubes.

I am also assuming the Composite tubes are a hell of a lot more durable than the Plastic ones, but who knows how well the threads will hold up?

So, a full aluminum-only set will cost $260 for a full set of 4 wheels, but I imagine they would last forever.

Pro-Line really can't offer replacement parts, as a whole wheel consists of just three pieces (excluding the screws). The part that can get stripped out is the massive, chrome wheel itself. The aluminum lock rings will never fail, in my estimation.

But I must say again that the poor design of the Pro-Line requires a full freakin' 36 scrws per wheel (18 on each side). Compare that to 8 for the Maximizer. Their design has only screws on the outside of the wheel, which makes a ton of sense.

If Stormer made Maximizers that fit 40-series tires, I'd definitely try them. If they do, PLEASE DON'T let me know it (I don't need to spend the extra money - and I've decided to just glue my Big Joes).


UPDATE to my review:
I disassembled my wheel, and packed up the Commandos in their original wrapping. I believe Tower will allow me to return them, as they still look unused (they technically were). I am asking for Velocity 6 wheels for my Big Joes as replacements.

When I disassembled the Commandos, 5 of the 36 screws tore out the threads, leaving a total of 9 stripped-out holes (recall that all four of the factory-installed screws stripped out). I think it is clear that the factory holes stripped because they weren't fully secured in shipping. The rings just rattle around, which tears apart the plastic threads. So, assume about 1/4 of the holes will get stripped each and every time you replace the tires. Had they been aluminum, they would be perfect (but would have cost a fortune).

fhm101

I bought a set of Maximiser beadlocks in plastic a few years ago with the thought that they would be the perfect way to test tires when I first moved from electric to MT racing. Knowing how important correct tire tread/compound is to racing I worried about having to lay out a big pile of bones for tires that may or may not be worth having in my pit box. My logic was I could try tires with the beadlocks and if they were good, then glue them up on velos and if they were not, sell them off as one runs. I'll be the first to tell you that the Maximiser beadlocks work exactly as advertised, but proved to be much too heavy to give me a realistic picture of tire performance once the tires were glued to velos. When you add the fact that it's a MAJOR PITA to change out tires, my idea of using them as a quick change platform for tire testing was not practical at all. They are a 3 piece design with all 3 pieces being made of the same material which is some very good plastic for the application. It's just rigid enough to allow plenty of tightening torque on the lock screws without thread damage yet not so rigid as to be prone to breakage. That said, I can attest to the fact that the Maximiser plastic beadlocks will hold up to repeated installation and removal of the locking screws with no problem. Of course if you are prone to over tightening fasteners, nothing plastic is going to last very long in which case the aluminum version of the Maximisers would be a good choice. While IMO both plastic and aluminum beadlocks are far too heavy for racing they would be ideal for the basher who wants to avoid the hassle of removing worn out tires from glued wheels or expense of new wheels for every new set of tires. They are also great for the rock crawler who can always use the extra weight down low.

brianfuchs

My Feedback: (1)

Just wanted to post an update on Pro-Line.

I E-mailed their "Customer Service" early in the week regarding the poor quality of the Commandos.

I asked them if they would refund my money directly.

It is now Friday, and I have not seen any response.

Maybe they snail-mailed it...

I'd call them, but don't want to waste the 10 cents.

Be fore-warned about Pro-Line's customer service...

SublimeJason

Very Good Thread Guys!
Lots of Good Info, Thanks!

jcook

Thank you for supporting PROTOform products. My name is Jessica Cook and I am in the Customer Service Department at Pro-Line racing. Pro-Line/PROTOform is always striving to assure that you are 100% satisfied with your products. It is important for us to hear your feedback directly in order for us to meet and exceed your expectations in any way possible. I'm very sorry to hear that there is some difficulty with the new Commando Bead-Loc wheels. Because this is a new product we have not heard any complaints and we appreciate your feedback. We assure you that these wheels have gone through extensive testing and have been found to have no stripping with regular use.

If anyone is currently in need further assistance please contact me directly and I will be more than happy to help in any way possible.

Thanks again for your support.

Jessica Cook
Pro-Line Promotions and Customer Service
[email protected]
(951) 849-9781 Ex. 21

brianfuchs

My Feedback: (1)

Well, the reply above is pretty much the same that Pro-Line sent me personally. It took a week, and they stated they would NOT give a refund for the wheels. They did offer to exchange them for other Pro-Line parts, so they should be given credit for that.

I still stand by my proven assertion that the screws strip out too easily from normal use. The proof is in my original pictures.

Frost_

My Feedback: (1)

The bead locks do this too... maybe not as fast but they DEFINTELY DO. I was VERY CAREFUL with the hardware, but these type of wheel NEED a metal thread insert to hold up. That is the only solution. The beadlocks are heavy when compared to similar wheels as well. Mine have been in a bag for over a year.

fhm101

I struggled with my maximisers for about 3 months swapping tires no less than 30 times while trying to use the beadlocks for race tire testing and never stripped a screw hole. The guy I sold them to a couple of years ago mounted them on a rock crawler and is still using them. I know he's changed tires on them at least 5 times since he's had them. If the average user changed tires twice a year and got the same results, they would only get 17.5 years out of their beadlocks.

ncgrunt

To bad, I was really looking forward to them. Maybe (yeah right) Proline will listen and remake them in a useable form.

Well, I don't know what you read, but their page for the commando wheels only mentions about 5 times that they use the 23mm hexes...
http://www.prolineracing.com/proline...2680/2680.html

brianfuchs

My Feedback: (1)

ncgrunt, you are right - Proline clearly mentions they use 23mm Hexes.

I'm a guy who bought an E-Maxx several months ago, and heard that Big Joes were awesome tires. I went to the ProLine website, followed the menus as if I had an E-Maxx (the menu selection says "Maxx and Monster Trucks" ), and it led me right to the Commandos.

I has no idea that everyone used different nut sizes, and nowhere in the ad did it say they weren't directly compatible. Was that Pro-Line's fault? Not really; I never claimed that part of their ad was misleading.

My warning was for newbie Maxx users like myself.

In fact, I bet over half of the Maxx users who have never switched out their wheels before would have gone down the same path as myself.

Sure, I read "23mm Hex", but never thought it really meant "not E-Maxx compatible" - especially since the link promised wheels for "Maxx and Monster Trucks".

I still think it would have been nice (and simple) to specify a very short list of the most popular trucks that these were compatible with. They kind of do, if you go to the Wheel Specifications -- but why would I care about the specs, when the wheels are designed for Big Joes, and many people use them on their E-Maxxes? Now, if they had made the link say "Compatibility Chart and Wheel Specifications", I would have gone there.

fhm101

Speaking of the 23mm drives. From what I've been hearing the 23mm proline units pretty much blow from a durability standpoint. Not to mention the $30 23mm wrench you also have to buy to be able to install and remove the retaing nuts. If you just gotta have 23's check out the units from Dace Manufacturing. They simply slip over the (traxxas) stock 14mm hexes and use a 22mm retaining nut. If you are any kind of gearhead you already have a 22mm socket and ratchet in your 1:1 toolbox or you can go to any auto parts store or sears and get one for about half of what the proline wrench costs. These babies are holding up well for the serious truggy racing crowd so there is no question of their strength.

ncgrunt

Ah, I see what you mean. They probably just assime that you would realize you had to get the 23mm hexes, because they don't come standard on any truck.

Only potential trouble I see with that is that your energy has to transfer from the axle to the 14mm hex, then from there to the 23mm hex. The Proline versions avoid that unnecessary middle man.

fhm101

On first blush you would think it would be a problem, but when you consider how much more surface area you have between the 14 and 23mm hexes with a slip over design versus a pin on, the slip on would be much less prone to failure. Either way, the big trucks are eating the proline units like candy while the Dace drives are like an old timex watch. They take a licking and keep on ticking over and over again. A friend that races a very hot truggy (highly modded Novarossi 8 port .28 powered LSP) destroyed 2 of his proline drives and an axle the first time he ran them. Proline replaced the drives but he had to eat the axle. After several free replacement prolines he went to the dace adapter and has not had a single problem in over a month of hard racing. This is just one of the reports I've had from the track regards the proline versus dace story. There are several others and all have a common theme, the prolines blow while the dace drives just work with no problems.

HelicopterPilot

So according to this the screws should no strip ,but the screws DID strip.

Is this just a one defect problem , and if it it and I happen to have a defected version will it be replaced.

OR

Is this a flawed design , and will it be improved due to possibly more complaints. Since it is a new product it might have a flaw ,but that doesn't mean you leave the flaw in there

jcook

If you feel you have a product with a defect please feel free to contact me directly for more information. Returns are all handled on a case-by-case basis and findings after items are received supersede any implied warranty.

[email protected]

HelicopterPilot

So.. according to this and the other statement is that screws shouldn't strip with normal use. Right? But his screws were stripped the first time he took them out. Would that count as a defect ? and he be able to return it

USABaja5B

I love this idea for beadlocks, and will probably buy a set to try out. If they do strip, I'll be putting metal thread inserts in there.

badboy2

My Feedback: (13)

ive had same problem...it wont even hold my tires i followed the instructions and nope it just wont hold the bead.[] .. are they suppose to work with the big joes?coz no matter what i do ..they wont hold..i guess thats y its easy to change tires coz i can just pull them out hehehe...man !!!

badboy2

My Feedback: (13)

oh i also had that screw stripping problems...just didnt take the pic anyway i prolly still have the 4 i got....i have the same luck as u man...u think glue will work on this rims?do u need to return the rims for exchange?id rather have the wabash prolly 2 sets coz they cost like 17 per pair ..double the price of these wheels..[:'(]

USABaja5B

If anyone has some of these stripped wheels, I would like to buy them. PM me for a deal.

..............................

they look very cheeaey if you ask me . plus i beet the heck out of my truck and i dont realy want something that looks nice i want something that is light and durable