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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/7/2012 9:24 PM

Heli-NuBee

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I tried to start my UMS Evolution 7-77 radial engine for the first time yesterday without any luck. I tried everything I could think of but never even got a pop out of the engine. I lubed the valve train before I started and set up the Micorsens on board glow system. I mixed my own fuel of 90% methanol and 10% Klotz oil. I worked on the thing for over two hours and almost burned down my starter. I checked and rechecked everything including pulling every glow plug and verifying that each one lit up. I choked the engine to a point that raw fuel was comming out of the exhaust but not even a single pop.

I'll give her a rest for a day or two and then try again. Hey Tom, do you remember where your carb needle is set?

Thanks,

Roger

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/8/2012 7:27 PM

kochj

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Hey guys....

I have a saito 325 5cyl radial... that I had been sitting for the last year....
It was bench run and properly stored....

How much play do you have when you pull on the prop shaft?
My engine is only few tanks of gas /bench run....

I am worried that when I pulled the prop hub off to get off the crank case (I was looking at the timing gears to see how dif it would be to add ignition)
and there is some play after re-assembled....

I believe there is a crankshaft set screw (it is listed in the parts diagram as #31) that holds it in place and could it slip causing more play than allowed?

It doesn't all add up be I don't remember this much play....

It is about 2/16th of inch... that allows you to see the end of the crankcase (if you look sideways)
I may looking more into this than necessary but don't want to take any chances.

Thanks

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/8/2012 7:49 PM

kochj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heli-NuBee

I tried to start my UMS Evolution 7-77 radial engine for the first time yesterday without any luck. I tried everything I could think of but never even got a pop out of the engine. I lubed the valve train before I started and set up the Micorsens on board glow system. I mixed my own fuel of 90% methanol and 10% Klotz oil. I worked on the thing for over two hours and almost burned down my starter. I checked and rechecked everything including pulling every glow plug and verifying that each one lit up. I choked the engine to a point that raw fuel was comming out of the exhaust but not even a single pop.

I'll give her a rest for a day or two and then try again. Hey Tom, do you remember where your carb needle is set?

Thanks,

Roger

I am sure you will figure it out....
If you were closer I would come out to your place and give you a hand...
If you got fuel, Fire, and Air.....it should start.... from what you told us is you have all three,,,, but something isn't right...

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/8/2012 9:44 PM

Orion09

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I got my Evo 777 last Dec.When I tried to start it first time it wouldnt go and I found it had very little compression.Closer look found the valves were adjusted wrong from the factory.All intakes were opening on compression stroke.After adjusting them it fired right up.Hope they arent still letting engines out like this but its something to check because they really are easy to start.

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/13/2012 9:23 PM

Heli-NuBee

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I had a little better luck starting my UMS Evolution 7-77 radial engine today. I followed Tom's suggestion of five blades of choke with the needle valve open two turns. The engine grumbled on the first flip. I continued hand flipping for the next five minutes but no luck. I then put the electric starter to work and she easily roared to life. I notice that there is a huge differance when the glow system is engaged. The engine tends to loose a cylinder at low speed and the microsens system is a bit slow to reset. I ran the first 1/2 gallon of fuel through the engine on several runs. The engine is getting stronger but will need a lot more break in running and low speed jet adjustment. I could not get any after run oil at the local hobby shop so I had to settle for air tool oil to flush the engine after the break in runs.

Roger

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/13/2012 11:25 PM

Heli-NuBee

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Here are a few pictures of the UMS Evolution 7-77 radial engine mounted in a BH Corsair under engine break in procedure.

Roger

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/14/2012 10:54 PM

kochj

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Is there anyone that has a saito 325 5cyl radial check how much play there is on the crankshaft (push/pull prop hub to see if there is much movement)
I guess I could just email or call horizon Hobby.....

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/15/2012 3:09 AM

kochj

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Ohh... 1 more thing....
Saito is comming out with a GAS radial engine....
Not sure if they modded this one's case to include a bearing on the crank/rod connection.... but I would like to see how they did it....as I could then use the
info to convert my saito 5cyl radial to gas...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwCd76ZBtOE

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/15/2012 4:06 AM

ya33a

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Hi,
I have a brand new never run 325 R, I haven't noticed any end float between the back of the prop driver and the front of the engine, it is a very tight fit with only enough room for a slip of paper to go in the gap, the prop driver is almost flush with the front of the prop shaft.

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/15/2012 9:27 AM

fredo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kochj

Ohh... 1 more thing....
Saito is comming out with a GAS radial engine....
Not sure if they modded this one's case to include a bearing on the crank/rod connection.... but I would like to see how they did it....as I could then use the
info to convert my saito 5cyl radial to gas...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwCd76ZBtOE

Nice one, it was always just a matter of time.

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/15/2012 4:35 PM

kochj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ya33a

Hi,
I have a brand new never run 325 R, I haven't noticed any end float between the back of the prop driver and the front of the engine, it is a very tight fit with only enough room for a slip of paper to go in the gap, the prop driver is almost flush with the front of the prop shaft.

thank you for the reply did you pull on the prop hub to see if it would pull outward? Mine sits flush until I pull on the hub....
If it isn't then my guess is that the pip slipped....
I will have to open it up and see.

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/15/2012 11:59 PM

radial1951

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kochj

Is there anyone that has a saito 325 5cyl radial check how much play there is on the crankshaft (push/pull prop hub to see if there is much movement)
I guess I could just email or call horizon Hobby.....

*
Hi kochj, my 325 has ZERO end play in the crankshaft. There is no visible gap at the rear of the prop driver. I'm fairly certain that the prop driver is relieved at the back and the rim actually overlaps the nose of the front of the crankcase. This also appears to be the case with the 200R3, same design.

As you have had your 325 in pieces you already know what it looks like inside, but FWIW I have collected pics from the net of the 325 innards when other owners have dismantled them for repairs. Part #31 is a crankCASE (not crankshaft) set screw to hold the idler gear shafts in place, there are 5 of them.

You may find that putting a prop on and tightening it up will pull it all up tight... the tapered drive collet is probably not seated against the front bearing. (like my EVO 7-77 was)

Quite a few radials have been converted to petrol (gas) including the ASP 400 and Saito 325 and 450. I have the links somewhere if you are interested. There are several ways to fire radial ignition systems, none of them particularly elegant as an add-on, but quite workable.

Regards, RossG
radial1951
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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/16/2012 5:09 AM

ya33a

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Hi,
I'd be interested in converting my 325 to run on gas, I found a site where they use glow plugs and pump gas, but mostly with 2 strokes, plus I'm concerned about how to advance the ignition on a glow/petrol set up to stop the chance of doing a rod or valve on a $2k engine...

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/16/2012 5:33 PM

redball8

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I always thought the conventional wisdom was that the bushed connecting rod ends need at least 10% oil, and usually more (witness OS and Saito recommendations of 16-18%). That's not a function of the type of fuel; it's true whether glow or gas. I thought gas engines used needle bearings at the conrod ends to enable low content (such as 50:1, or 2%).

Am I missing something? Or do you just resort to gas with 10-15% oil?

< Message edited by redball8 -- 8/16/2012 7:31 PM >

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/17/2012 3:51 AM

kochj

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The biggest issue with gas conversions on the radials is The ignition system...

About the only way I could figure was to add a pickup on each timming cam. and route it off 5-ignitions OR route 5=plugs off 1-ignition box...
I don't know if it would be that easy as adding the spark plug caps to the ignition box.... It all depends on how many times per sec. the stock ignition is capable of firing ....

The other option to get a proper ignition pickup is a to machine a gear(s) setup that runs at the proper speed....
I don't have a machine shop so the first seems more possible..

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/17/2012 4:00 AM

kochj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: radial1951

quote:

ORIGINAL: kochj

Is there anyone that has a saito 325 5cyl radial check how much play there is on the crankshaft (push/pull prop hub to see if there is much movement)
I guess I could just email or call horizon Hobby.....

*
Hi kochj, my 325 has ZERO end play in the crankshaft. There is no visible gap at the rear of the prop driver. I'm fairly certain that the prop driver is relieved at the back and the rim actually overlaps the nose of the front of the crankcase. This also appears to be the case with the 200R3, same design.

As you have had your 325 in pieces you already know what it looks like inside, but FWIW I have collected pics from the net of the 325 innards when other owners have dismantled them for repairs. Part #31 is a crankCASE (not crankshaft) set screw to hold the idler gear shafts in place, there are 5 of them.

You may find that putting a prop on and tightening it up will pull it all up tight... the tapered drive collet is probably not seated against the front bearing. (like my EVO 7-77 was)

Quite a few radials have been converted to petrol (gas) including the ASP 400 and Saito 325 and 450. I have the links somewhere if you are interested. There are several ways to fire radial ignition systems, none of them particularly elegant as an add-on, but quite workable.

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________

Thanks... and Yes I am interested....

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/19/2012 12:32 AM

robkamm

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I emailed authentic scale a few months back about the 4 row they were developing. got a answer. was told early 2013. Looks like they are going to build some good looking and hopefully good running stuff.

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/19/2012 2:46 AM

flyrockets

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Hello

I am setting up a BH 120 Coarsair with a Saito FA200R3. This is my VP30 fuel pump that worked great on a Saito .82/1.20 single and a OS 1.60 single. The pump runs off of the crank case presure. I have a multi cyl glow driver that is powered by a 5000 mAh NiMH 4.8 volt pack. The propeller is a 3 blade 16-8.

OK that's the set up. My question is when setting the high RPM needle valve it reached peak rpm (7500rpm) at about 5 turns out from all the way in. The rpm does not change when I open it further all the way until it comes out; when it stalls.

Since this is my first radial I am not sure if I have an issue or not. It seams to me that if I open the high speed needle valve past max rpm the rmp should drop due to a too rich mixture. Since it is not doing that I am wondering if the engine is fuel (volume) limited.

What do you think? One idea I came up with to test is to bypass the fuel pump and use exhaust pressure to drive the fuel. I have not tested this yet and was wondering if anyone has seen this befor.

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/19/2012 10:11 AM

the Gnome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flyrockets

Hello

I am setting up a BH 120 Coarsair with a Saito FA200R3. This is my VP30 fuel pump that worked great on a Saito .82/1.20 single and a OS 1.60 single. The pump runs off of the crank case presure. I have a multi cyl glow driver that is powered by a 5000 mAh NiMH 4.8 volt pack. The propeller is a 3 blade 16-8.

OK that's the set up. My question is when setting the high RPM needle valve it reached peak rpm (7500rpm) at about 5 turns out from all the way in. The rpm does not change when I open it further all the way until it comes out; when it stalls.

Since this is my first radial I am not sure if I have an issue or not. It seams to me that if I open the high speed needle valve past max rpm the rmp should drop due to a too rich mixture. Since it is not doing that I am wondering if the engine is fuel (volume) limited.

What do you think? One idea I came up with to test is to bypass the fuel pump and use exhaust pressure to drive the fuel. I have not tested this yet and was wondering if anyone has seen this befor.

Hello flyrockets,

Your fuel pump setup will not work on a radial, as the pressure impulses on this engine type are too weak due to the big crankcase volume and the even suction of the multi cylinder.
My advice is to provide a straigt feed with the tank as near to the carb as possible. Normally You will not need to assist by exhaust pressure, but my 325R5 has a pressure pipe on one
of the exhaust tubes.
And at last, yes, full throttle fuel quantity is an issue on nearly all radials, this is because the even suction causes much slower gas velocity in the carb compared to a single cylinder
with its small intake pipe volume. With the correct carb diameter this is nothing to be worried, just make it rich enough for full rpm and open the needle some extra 1/4 to 1/2 turns.

Jens

Holm und Rippenbruch

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/19/2012 3:27 PM

flyrockets

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Thank you,

I will bypass the fuel pump and run it up.

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/20/2012 1:36 PM

smkrcflyer

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I'm thinking about building a Ziroli PT-17 87 inch version for my Saito 450R3. What do you guys think?

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Post #: 3421

RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/21/2012 2:52 AM

Heli-NuBee

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Making progress with my UMS Evolution 7-77 break-in. The engine is running much stronger now and the idle has improved a great deal. Here is a video of one of the break-in engine runs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR0f_QiZ2YI&feature=youtu.be

Roger

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/23/2012 3:29 AM

kochj

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Update (the crank play on radial)

The reason the crank moves forward and back = The movement forward and back, sliding on the wrist pins...
If I don't want movement....... The crank needs to be pulled up tight, and then place the prop hub on...

This leaves the piston rods, slid all the way forward on the wrist pins, and the crank counter balance up, against the bearing....
done deal....

One more note.... The prop hub on the Saito 325 is soooo tight, it has to be heated up in order to be moved.....It isn't going ANYWHERE....

..

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 8/23/2012 3:40 AM

kochj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heli-NuBee

Making progress with my UMS Evolution 7-77 break-in. The engine is running much stronger now and the idle has improved a great deal. Here is a video of one of the break-in engine runs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR0f_QiZ2YI&feature=youtu.be

Roger

Like all radials; The collector (exhuast) addition, makes the engine sound much deeper, and growly....than the short headers alone...

Thanks for the vid....

< Message edited by kochj -- 9/5/2012 5:51 AM >

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RE: Everything Radial Engines - 9/20/2012 2:53 AM

Heli-NuBee

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I just ordered an ASP 400 radial from Hobby King. Hobby King has just received a limited supply. I plan to use this engine in my CMP 80" Zero, I believe that will be a good combination. I just love my other radial engines, the Saito 200 radial and the UMS Evolution 777 radial, so I could not resist buying one of the ASP 400 radials when it became available.

Roger

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