ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (Full Version)

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somethnextra -> ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/7/2005 5:16:55 PM)

Has anyone put a ZDZ 60 on the 28% Edge? Would the DA 50 be a better way to go? Also, how much lighter would a composite wing spar and landing gear make the plane?



rglass1144 -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/7/2005 6:43:42 PM)

I have the ZDZ 60 on my Wildhare Edge 540 28% and it has more than enough power with a 22-10 prop. 24-8 prop works better at slowing the airplane on landing but I have not been able to flat spin with the 24-8. I am sure it is me and not the plane or prop. Get a carbon fiber wing tube from Troybuilt models or you may bend the aluminum tube like I and a few others have done and have to maybe cut the bent aluminum tube off to get it out of the fuslage. Check your wing tube to see if it has 6061 T6 on it anyplace. If not, I would not use it. Unless of course you don't plan to do any aerobatics or 3D flying.



jongurley -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/7/2005 8:27:05 PM)

Hey rglass1144 I have the ZDZ60 on my WIldhare 28% Extra special I am running a 24x8 Menzs wood, the motor is almost broke in and the motor pulls it out of a hover but it isn't as stout as I thought it would be,, I have no carbon fiber parts,, I figured that 15 oz's saved on the gear and tube is not worth 155 dollars, to me anyhow,,,, What is the best prop for 3D,,, carbon or wood or 24x8 or 22x10 or what do you suggest for my ZDZ60,,, thx or anyone who wants to jump in,,



rglass1144 -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/7/2005 10:12:13 PM)

I am using a 22-10. Unlimited verticle on my Edge 540 that weighs a whopping 21 pounds! A 22-10 is faster, harder to land due to speed, and at high speeds if your control surface gaps are not sealed you could get control surface flutter that generally leads to disaster on a model this large. A 24-8 will give you better downline braking, slowing for landing, and better thrust on the upline from a very low speed start. Carbon fiber prop versus wood? Stay with wood. Cheaper to replace and I don't think you will notice any difference. Cabon fiber is stiffer and will not flex like wood. I have heard people say that sometimes if the cabon fiber prop comes in contact with the ground instead of breaking off like wood does, it can bend the crankshaft on the engine. I like the carbon fiber wing tube so far. My aluminum tube bent. There goes another fifty bucks.



somethnextra -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/7/2005 10:24:52 PM)

21 lbs??!! That makes for a really high wing loading! I was hoping that spending the extra money for a DA or ZDZ would keep the plane light. Why is your plane so heavy? Do you have a smoke system installed?



rglass1144 -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/7/2005 10:48:10 PM)

Yes I have smoke but it does not add that much weight. I don't know why the thing is so darn heavy. I wish I would have weighed it before I started adding components. I weighed it on two different scales just to make sure I was not in error. But that ZDZ 60 does have the power to haul it straight up from a (sloppy) hover. Well now let me rethink this. It now weighs 4.5 oz less because of the carbon fiber tube. I land on a paved runway and it really takes some time and distance to slow the thing down. In addition to the smoke I have a pilot that weighs 4 oz. Maybe it is all the decals I put on it. If I ever assemble another one I will be weighing everything for sure. But it is fun to fly. Really showy with the smoke on, especially in a flat spin with smoke on using 3D rated. Very impressive corkscrew smoke trail. Knife edge is very easy with this plane also. And the roll rate is unbelievably fast on 3D rates.



somethnextra -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/7/2005 10:51:54 PM)

That's pretty heavy... I'd like to keep the weight towards the low end of the spectrum. Maybe a DA-50 or Brison 3.2 would be a better way to go. I'm planning on getting a CF wing tube and the FG gear.



mstroh3961 -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/7/2005 11:49:38 PM)

My Edge 540 with a DA-50, CF tubes and Toms FG gear, 3 1650 NmHD battery packs is 16.75 LB's

With a menzs 22-8 vertical is ballistic.[:D]



somethnextra -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 12:33:40 AM)

Mark, what did you use to connect the two rx packs?



dick Hanson -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 1:17:11 AM)

ZDZ60--just shy of one lb heavier than a DA50-or ZDZ50 those two weigh exactly same - I have done this comparison with all these engines on same scale at the same time .
The power -with a good in cowl muffler is easily better with the ZDZ60 -it is a lot bigger and a lot more stroke.
If you add a tuned can it will easily turn 24x10 Menz S at 6400.
The ZDZ50 on tuned pipe is really strong - 7200 on 23x8-JAS prop (similar to Mejzlic)
but not all pipes/cans are the same so if you want THE strongest -lightest setup -you really have to check muffer /can/engine combo - swapping the pipe combos around the fifties can equal the ZDZ60 with muffer cans .
I have yet to see any 50 pipe combo that will equal the ZDZ60 on a proper tuned pipe .
Bottom line - the engine with the best exhaust system will win.



somethnextra -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 1:26:04 AM)

So what is the best exhaust system? (for any of these engines)



mstroh3961 -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 1:58:54 AM)

I used MPI switch/charge jacks



dick Hanson -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 3:56:04 AM)

The best for power?
- properly sized, tuned full length pipe -
The best power boost of any we have run, are the new AMT pipes . They are not as quiet as the KS tuned pipes but so far , show better , usable power boost .
Tuned pipes are not simple "bolt on and go fly items " but properly sized, will make huge differences in power and improve throttle response thru entire rpm band.



jongurley -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 12:29:27 PM)

What prop do you reccomend for 3d with the ZDZ60 Dick Hanson,,, I live in North Carolina,, and my Extra probably weighs around 20 pounds,,,, I was running a 24X8 menzs and it pulled out OK but wasn't what I was expecting,, It is turning that prop on the ground 6750 rpms,,, thx



dick Hanson -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 2:39:58 PM)

good question - first tho - what exhaust system are you using ?
The actual max torque- changes dramatically with the addition of better exhaust systems.
Secondly - 20 lbs is simply the limit for 60 cc on 3D stuff.
For me - That model would be much better with a 80-My best 3D plane in that size was 18.5 lbs w/80 on can.
It also was very good with the 60 - but swapping in the 80 really made a difference.
Everyone has their own idea as to what is enough power for 3D-
Mine is perhaps different than yours .
If the plane will not accelerate vertically from a hover -it needs more poop.
We are just finishing up a 35% WHEXTRA with a ZDZ160 on JMB cans .
That is a 3D power to weight ratio for me .
The RCShowcase chart on power to weight for extreme aerobatics is a pretty accurate guide.-Tho my own models are even higher power to weight. ((summer corrected altitude here reaches 8000 ft somedays).



jongurley -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 3:03:06 PM)

I have a Slimline smoke pitts muffler Dick,,, My plane is stock weight so it is probably around 18 I said 20 pounds just to give a high side weight,,, now does this info help,,



dick Hanson -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 4:06:28 PM)

yes-you are propped pretty well but possibly a slimmer blade would help- the JAS I use are imported by Ed Skorpa (ESComposites)-to his specs and they rev more -at same diameter - so it gets you into the best torque possible with your engine setup.
Or get any narrower 24x8 wood prop- can't name any -
Something equivilant to Mejzlic.
You know , of course that the in cowl setup is not best power -simple, but ---------
I see a real difference when these are changed to a very short header and big JMB can -or long header and tuned can or long header (such as the new J shaped flex header and a tuned pipe .

here are pics of my latest monster setup.
Th big rudder servo is on a 1/8" aircraft ply plate -,in order to beef up the cutout required .
The batts are located rearward.
I also made a gear 10 ozs lighter than the stock one.
These things will float in on landings - the original gear is over kill strength wise.
I should have it ready for the weekend -in 100 degree heat .
Iwill get an accurate weight -and a thrust reading on a Menz S30x10 and hopefully my new Bambulas will arrrive today -
I like to wind the 160's around 6000- this lets me just feed power evenly as desired -with instant response.



jongurley -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 4:15:00 PM)

So you think the JAS 24X8 will put me were I need to be,,Were can I order a JAS 24X8 prop from Dick,,, thanks for all the help,,,



dick Hanson -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 4:43:36 PM)

The prop is labeled for ED Skoerpa as Skoerpa - go to ESComposites - If not - maybe the props sold by 3W- or the other narrower blades. (ask Tom what he has on hand)
When Mike McConville ran the Zenoah 80's in his planes - he would open up the mufflers, use a Bolly 24" prop and let em run up into the 7000 range.
This would maximize power potential.
For some reason (?) many flyers think a bigger prop or wider blade will make more power -
NOT SO!
First -get the engine smack dab into max torque available (which changes with exhaust systems used )---THEN maximize blade design to your flying tastes.
You are close to this rpm on your present prop- but more revs won't hurt it -
I run my ZDZ50 up to 8000 on tuned pipe - power is simply wild -I run my Roto 25 up to 10,000 -no problems .
My piped 80 ZDZ- 7300 on the ground 26x10 .
We need more revs up here to deliver same thrust - so back off those numbers 3-400 rpm - you should be fine .



somethnextra -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 5:10:06 PM)

How do you fit a tuned pipe in an Edge? Even a can is pretty long for this plane.



gixxer01 -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/8/2005 5:23:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dick Hanson

good question - first tho - what exhaust system are you using ?
The actual max torque- changes dramatically with the addition of better exhaust systems.
Secondly - 20 lbs is simply the limit for 60 cc on 3D stuff.
For me - That model would be much better with a 80-My best 3D plane in that size was 18.5 lbs w/80 on can.
It also was very good with the 60 - but swapping in the 80 really made a difference.
Everyone has their own idea as to what is enough power for 3D-
Mine is perhaps different than yours .
If the plane will not accelerate vertically from a hover -it needs more poop.
We are just finishing up a 35% WHEXTRA with a ZDZ160 on JMB cans .
That is a 3D power to weight ratio for me .
The RCShowcase chart on power to weight for extreme aerobatics is a pretty accurate guide.-Tho my own models are even higher power to weight. ((summer corrected altitude here reaches 8000 ft somedays).



A ZDZ 160!! That is pretty crazy! hovering @ 1/4 throttle I take it! Pics and video please...


Tim



FreedomFlier -> RE: ZDZ 60 on an Edge? (7/9/2005 4:08:47 AM)

ZDZ Power [:D]

I don't want to start a hornets nest... I just want to say.. I love my ZDZ / Wild Hare Combo!!! It is a riot! The Pictures speak for themselves. I want to get some videos captured/posted of this in action and get it out on the net [:)]

yes... it's an 80...[:D][:D][:D][:D]



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