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RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/21/2006 3:21:57 AM   
africanmike


 

Posts: 81
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: sarasota, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Tom: sure will
I hope to get some calm weather this weekend so I can get her dialed in.
My friend is gonna try to come out tomorrow and fly her and we'll decide wether to change the CG or thrust line or both.

_____________________________

Insanity is endlessly repeating the same process and expecting a differant result

(in reply to africanmike)
       Post #: 376

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/21/2006 9:10:53 PM   
Young-RCPilot



Posts: 243
Joined: 3/28/2005
From: hamilton, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Hey africanmike could you try to get a video of the plane when you fly it. Thanks

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Theres only 1 way to see if your plane is built strong, How You Ask?
BLENDER!

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       Post #: 377

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 10:17:52 AM   
hpergm



Posts: 177
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Athens, GREECE
Status: offline 		I just got delivery of the plane yesterday and I'm going over it. Construction looks very nice and it should prove a really sturdy airframe. Upon first inspection I can see a few areas where weight can be shaved off. I will be posting some comments about weight savings later on.

I have also made a list of the weight of various components, for those who are interested (all figures in grams):

Rudder: 120
Fin&Post: 47
Right Stab +Elevator: 120
Left Stab +Elevator: 118
Carbon Stab Tube: 13
Aluminium Stab Rod: 12
Cowl Uncut: 330
Canopy Semi-Uncut: 144
Hatch w/o Floor: 148
Hatch Floor: 58
Left Wing Panel w/Aileron: 711
Right Wing Panel w/Aileron: 723
Wing Tube: 159
LG Legs: 231
Bolts for LG: 10
Fuzelage: 1590
Wheel Pants+Bolts: 65
Tank Floor: 15
Tail Wheel Assy: 55
Axles: 55
Various Bolts (Wings, etc): 70
Horns +Bolts: 34

Total: 4828 or 10.63lbs. Projected AUW with my setup (I have weighed all components: DA50, can/header, hitecs, Li-Ions, Regulator, Spinner etc.) is at the moment 17.8lbs.

Out of academic interest, I also measured the wing span and area, the latter by measuring all major dimensions, drawing the planform in Autocad and using the "Area" tool. What I found is interesting....

The span of the plane assembled is ~82.9" (2105mm), not 84". You will only get 84" if you pull the wings out of the fuz sockets and leave them just touching the exterior skin)...

The area of the two main wing panels (root chord 530mm, tip chord 270mm and semi-span 945mm) off the fuz is 1164 sq.in (only?!). If one adds the central fuz area of ~202sq.in. (project wings into fuz until "joined" and subtracts the area of the wing fuz sockets (~36sq.in.) then the wing area is not 1410sq.in. but 1330sq.in.!

Could someone verify my measurements? If true, the model seems off both in weight and wing area specs...! A quick calculation of the wing loading with the "true" figures reveals that 17.8lbs/1330sq.in. = 284.8oz/9.236111sq.ft. = 30.83oz/sq.ft!.

_____________________________

I'd rather be out flying....

(in reply to Young-RCPilot)
       Post #: 378

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 1:23:43 PM   
lsnover


 

Posts: 629
Joined: 4/29/2002
From: Bath, PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hpergm

I just got delivery of the plane yesterday and I'm going over it. Construction looks very nice and it should prove a really sturdy airframe. Upon first inspection I can see a few areas where weight can be shaved off. I will be posting some comments about weight savings later on.

I have also made a list of the weight of various components, for those who are interested (all figures in grams):

Rudder: 120
Fin&Post: 47
Right Stab +Elevator: 120
Left Stab +Elevator: 118
Carbon Stab Tube: 13
Aluminium Stab Rod: 12
Cowl Uncut: 330
Canopy Semi-Uncut: 144
Hatch w/o Floor: 148
Hatch Floor: 58
Left Wing Panel w/Aileron: 711
Right Wing Panel w/Aileron: 723
Wing Tube: 159
LG Legs: 231
Bolts for LG: 10
Fuzelage: 1590
Wheel Pants+Bolts: 65
Tank Floor: 15
Tail Wheel Assy: 55
Axles: 55
Various Bolts (Wings, etc): 70
Horns +Bolts: 34

Total: 4828 or 10.63lbs. Projected AUW with my setup (I have weighed all components: DA50, can/header, hitecs, Li-Ions, Regulator, Spinner etc.) is at the moment 17.8lbs.

Out of academic interest, I also measured the wing span and area, the latter by measuring all major dimensions, drawing the planform in Autocad and using the "Area" tool. What I found is interesting....

The span of the plane assembled is ~82.9" (2105mm), not 84". You will only get 84" if you pull the wings out of the fuz sockets and leave them just touching the exterior skin)...

The area of the two main wing panels (root chord 530mm, tip chord 270mm and semi-span 945mm) off the fuz is 1164 sq.in (only?!). If one adds the central fuz area of ~202sq.in. (project wings into fuz until "joined" and subtracts the area of the wing fuz sockets (~36sq.in.) then the wing area is not 1410sq.in. but 1330sq.in.!

Could someone verify my measurements? If true, the model seems off both in weight and wing area specs...! A quick calculation of the wing loading with the "true" figures reveals that 17.8lbs/1330sq.in. = 284.8oz/9.236111sq.ft. = 30.83oz/sq.ft!.



Unfortunately, none of the ARF manufactuers seem to be too accurate when giving their initial specifications, and they always tend to lean towards the optimistic side. A few of us have mentioned that we are a bit disappointed in this planes overall weight. However, it does seem in line for other planes of this general size. We can all hope for lighter, but beings that the Asian assemblers are all picking out of the same general stocks of raw materials, that is probably unrealistic, unless we are willing to pay "more" for models of a "premium" variety where these folks will take the time to cherry pick the best stocks of balsa and ply, and other components.

I do wish ALL the companies would have a ittle more "truth-in-advertising" regaring their weights and dimensions. So many of them are stretching the truth (on purpose maybe) that it's probably be hard for the competition not to play the same game.

Regards,
Lee Snover

(in reply to hpergm)
       Post #: 379

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 2:30:49 PM   
hpergm



Posts: 177
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Athens, GREECE
Status: offline 		Totaly agree with you Lee.

Weight I can understand (variance in materials, specific setup etc.).

How about the wing area then? The dimensions are fixed and do not vary from model to model.

Given that any particular model that is advertised a long time before it is released will only sell by its quoted specs, when these are not reflected in reality then the issue becomes a bit more serious. Don't get me wrong, I do not intend to trash any particular model or company, I really like this Yak and I am positive I am gonna lighten it down to at least 17lbs. I did think however that I was buying a 16.5-17lbs model with 1410 sq.in.

_____________________________

I'd rather be out flying....

(in reply to lsnover)
       Post #: 380

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 2:46:44 PM   
bubbagates



Posts: 8162
Joined: 5/30/2004
From: Elizabethtown, PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hpergm

Totaly agree with you Lee.

Weight I can understand (variance in materials, specific setup etc.).

How about the wing area then? The dimensions are fixed and do not vary from model to model.

Given that any particular model that is advertised a long time before it is released will only sell by its quoted specs, when these are not reflected in reality then the issue becomes a bit more serious. Don't get me wrong, I do not intend to trash any particular model or company, I really like this Yak and I am positive I am gonna lighten it down to at least 17lbs. I did think however that I was buying a 16.5-17lbs model with 1410 sq.in.


Allot of manufactures include the horizontal stabs along with the fuselage and wings for the total area. Even though I did not go to the detail you did I suspect that once you calculate the horizontal stabs into you numbers you might very well see the 1410 you are wanting to see.

But according to the one real world flight report it seems as though it's not gonna be that bad of a plane

AfricanMike,

Being that I'm awfully lazy this morning and do not feel like going back through your posts, what is you AUW and with what gear? Did you also decided what to do as far as CG versus downthrust?

_____________________________

Bill James
Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from

(in reply to hpergm)
       Post #: 381

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 5:21:14 PM   
aj and phoenix



Posts: 75
Joined: 10/11/2003
From: S, TN, USA
Status: offline 		Deleted by AJ

< Message edited by aj and phoenix -- 1/24/2006 12:43:26 AM >

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AJ and Phoenix the Wonder Dog

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       Post #: 382

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 6:52:27 PM   
elderair



Posts: 328
Joined: 1/16/2002
From: Plattsburg, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Hello all. I am new to this list and just ordered my Yak from Chief Aircraft on Tuesday after a long debate about which 50cc arf to buy. I debated biplane vs monoplane and then all the different manufacturers of each. Finally, after all the debate I went for one that was in stock, cool looking, and ready to ship. So much for all the calculating!

My Yak will be equipped as follows:
DA 50 with slimline smoke muffler
JR 4721's converted to metal gear on ail/elev/ 8611 on rudder
Titanium Pro-links on ail/elev kevlar pull pull on rudder with SWB 3" offset arm on servo
Airwild MLP 1.25 arms on ail/elev.
Hitech 5245's on throttle/choke
Nova 3.5 spinner
TBM Lion 2700X2 with two Mpi Miracle sw./regs. nmh 1200mah 4.8 on ign
JR HD exts. on all servos
3.5 Sullivan Sky lite wheels
rc blimp productions titanium tail wheel assy.
22X10 NX prop (switch to 23x8 Mejzlik after break in)
16 oz. Hayes fuel tank.
Sullivan smoke system eventually


I know after owning a Wild hare Edge at 17.5 lb with a Brison 3.2 and reading tons of complaints about the same, ARFs being over weight compared to the specs given is a rule and not the exception, and I didn't expect anything different from this one and still ordered it. It would be nice if the Mfg would actually come in closer to the actual weight on the production models. There is always the changes implemented to speed the production that can add extra weight.

With all the talk about finished weights I thought I would just mention one guy who is really truthful in his built up kit weight advertising. Tom at Fiber-lite has designed a 50cc Edge from the ground up on CAD. If any of you guys are interested in the specs I was there when the completed model was hung on the digital scale and it came out at 15.2 lb and the wing area (not including fuse and stab) is honestly over 1400 sq." I had to jump on the Arf wagon though to get a plane flying while I am building the kit. It takes me a loooong time to build from a kit no matter how good it is.

If you really want a 50cc plane that comes in at advertised weight and advertised wing area and are willing to build a kit that is laser cut with cnc cut foam cores and excellent fiberglass andCF parts just go to www.fiber-lite.com and check out the Fiber-Lite Edge 540. It will blow your mind. I will have mine done sometime before 2007 if I can just stay with it. Untill then I will fly the overweight arfs and accept the fact that I will just have to fly a fat great looking plane.

_____________________________

The only time you can have too much fuel is when you are on fire!

(in reply to aj and phoenix)
       Post #: 383

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 6:56:58 PM   
lsnover


 

Posts: 629
Joined: 4/29/2002
From: Bath, PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elderair

Hello all. I am new to this list and just ordered my Yak from Chief Aircraft on Tuesday after a long debate about which 50cc arf to buy. I debated biplane vs monoplane and then all the different manufacturers of each. Finally, after all the debate I went for one that was in stock, cool looking, and ready to ship. So much for all the calculating!

My Yak will be equipped as follows:
DA 50 with slimline smoke muffler
JR 4721's converted to metal gear on ail/elev/ 8611 on rudder
Titanium Pro-links on ail/elev kevlar pull pull on rudder with SWB 3" offset arm on servo
Airwild MLP 1.25 arms on ail/elev.
Hitech 5245's on throttle/choke
Nova 3.5 spinner
TBM Lion 2700X2 with two Mpi Miracle sw./regs. nmh 1200mah 4.8 on ign
JR HD exts. on all servos
3.5 Sullivan Sky lite wheels
rc blimp productions titanium tail wheel assy.
22X10 NX prop (switch to 23x8 Mejzlik after break in)
16 oz. Hayes fuel tank.
Sullivan smoke system eventually


I know after owning a Wild hare Edge at 17.5 lb with a Brison 3.2 and reading tons of complaints about the same, ARFs being over weight compared to the specs given is a rule and not the exception, and I didn't expect anything different from this one and still ordered it. It would be nice if the Mfg would actually come in closer to the actual weight on the production models. There is always the changes implemented to speed the production that can add extra weight.

With all the talk about finished weights I thought I would just mention one guy who is really truthful in his built up kit weight advertising. Tom at Fiber-lite has designed a 50cc Edge from the ground up on CAD. If any of you guys are interested in the specs I was there when the completed model was hung on the digital scale and it came out at 15.2 lb and the wing area (not including fuse and stab) is honestly over 1400 sq." I had to jump on the Arf wagon though to get a plane flying while I am building the kit. It takes me a loooong time to build from a kit no matter how good it is.

If you really want a 50cc plane that comes in at advertised weight and advertised wing area and are willing to build a kit that is laser cut with cnc cut foam cores and excellent fiberglass andCF parts just go to www.fiber-lite.com and check out the Fiber-Lite Edge 540. It will blow your mind. I will have mine done sometime before 2007 if I can just stay with it. Untill then I will fly the overweight arfs and accept the fact that I will just have to fly a fat great looking plane.


Elderaire:

Sounds nice, but I don't have time to build. That's the dilema isn't it? Still I wish these guys would be a little more accurate in what they advertise.

Cheers!

Lee

(in reply to elderair)
       Post #: 384

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 8:08:11 PM   
hpergm



Posts: 177
Joined: 9/13/2002
From: Athens, GREECE
Status: offline
quote:

Allot of manufactures include the horizontal stabs along with the fuselage and wings for the total area. Even though I did not go to the detail you did I suspect that once you calculate the horizontal stabs into you numbers you might very well see the 1410 you are wanting to see.


Errrr,

No Bubba (unfortunately). In desperation I did calculate the area of the stabs and added them to the wing area but the total number came up to 1650sq.in. So no go there...

Anyway, if anyone can be bothered enough to check the area measurements, please do so and tell us (in case I have made some mistake)...

Enough of the "Yakking" about now, on to the build.

I have already mounted the DA to the firewall. I triple checked the horizontal thrust line marked on the firewall (it was only 1mm out). I measured the right thrust of the firewall and it seems to be about 2.3 degrees. With 2.5in stand-offs, the distance between the engine hub and the firewall is 160mm so a bit of trigonometry later shows that a mounting offset of 6.4mm to the left of the vertical centerline is needed to bring the spinner to the exact center of the cowl. Hope this is of some use.

The marking of the engine bolt holes is best done with the fuz stood vertically up against a table/wall so that the engine could just be placed atop the firewall while the marking takes place. It is recommended to mount the cowl on the fuz and check the distance between the spinner periphery and the cowl ring in all directions before proceeding to finalise the measurements. A little patience, and the engine will be nicely centered (measure twice, drill once). A short ladder is needed here to allow viewing from the top.


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< Message edited by hpergm -- 1/27/2006 8:31:44 AM >

_____________________________

I'd rather be out flying....

(in reply to bubbagates)
       Post #: 385

RE: New 50cc Yak - 1/22/2006 8:42:48 PM   
Edbaker


 

Posts: 62
Joined: 9/20/2002
From: Limington, ME, USA
Status: offline 		Build and Flight Report
If you don’t read all of this post please read the first part. Flight #5 post inspection found the firewall had come loose on the left side. The pins the manufacture installs and not big enough and should be replaced. I plan to add extra reinforcement as well. Kit Pro’s . I found the kit very easy to assemble and the covering job is one of the best I’ve ever seen on an ARF. The plane looks well constructed and the included hardware was very adequate. Kit Con’s; My kit came out a lot heavier that advertised, (19lbs dry, all stock with no wheel pants or cockpit floor) I don’t care for the way the cowl is mounted, first flights found that the screws keep coming loose. The hardware is a little sparse and I did not get an instruction manual. Now on the good stuff. I must say that I’m very pleased with the fling characteristics of this plane. Although mine came out heavy, my well broken in DA50 with a Mejzlik 23-8 prop and MTW exhaust had no problem fling this plane, it will pull out of a hover with authority. And speaking of hovering, the thing hovers like it’s hanging on a string, very little correction needed. I tried all the 3-D stuff I could think of and found no bad habits, great harriers. I set the CG as recommended in the manual at 8 1/8” from the forward former. I think you will find that this is tail heavy, Inverted requires no down elevator and inverted 45 up lines will pull to gear. I will shift it slightly forward but not much, this is going to be a 3-D bird. The engine has enough power and the plane is capable of easily fling the advanced sequence with no problem if properly balanced. I may try a few things in hopes to drop a pound but I will not go crazy. I’m more than happy with it the way it is. Conclusion, This is one great plane for the money. Although it has some issues, I would recommend it to anyone I know, it has no more problems that any other ARF. I plan to start a user review if any of you care to add to it once you have finished.

(in reply to hpergm)
       Post #: 386