Coloured smoke?
07-18-2005, 10:01 AM
#1
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Coloured smoke?
I was wondering if anyone has managed to colour their smoke, and how it was done? WE have a few jets over here that were recently fitted with smoke systems and are keen to try colouring it.
Any help would be appreciated
Any help would be appreciated
07-18-2005, 10:15 AM
#2
RE: Coloured smoke?
no efective way yet ...
the color smoke you see on full size air show jets ( not often to see color smoke these days on full scale also ) is very potent stuff ... besides being toxic, it stains everythng ! .... One year when the thunderbirds used color smoke, the smoke drifted into the parking area, and actually stained some cars !
what most of the jet guys would like to do is figure out how to get black smoke, especially for the vietnam era jets .
Wojtek
the color smoke you see on full size air show jets ( not often to see color smoke these days on full scale also ) is very potent stuff ... besides being toxic, it stains everythng ! .... One year when the thunderbirds used color smoke, the smoke drifted into the parking area, and actually stained some cars !
what most of the jet guys would like to do is figure out how to get black smoke, especially for the vietnam era jets .
Wojtek
07-18-2005, 01:58 PM
#4
RE: Coloured smoke?
The reds use biodegradable dyes from the textile industry (clothing dyes) AFAIK. They will severely stain your plane, thats why it wasnt tried at our field.....its mixed 50/50 with the smoke oil. If you're willing to take the mess, let us know how it goes 
(By the way, all reds are all capable of producing all 3 colors by using 3 exhaust vanes. By injecting the dye seperately, you could also switch between white and another color on your plane...that'd be really cool....)
(By the way, all reds are all capable of producing all 3 colors by using 3 exhaust vanes. By injecting the dye seperately, you could also switch between white and another color on your plane...that'd be really cool....)
07-18-2005, 03:01 PM
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RE: Coloured smoke?
I did some digging around about a year ago on this.
The problem appears that a small portion of dye goes a very long way indeed, and thus health and safety issues arise. Also, the stuff is used on the full size in fairly large quantity so the supply is in big drums. I am trying to find the email I had from the manufacturer, the sales team were helpful but the technical guys just not interested.
I then thought of using diesel dye as used to prevent fuel theft, which seem to come in yellow, blue and orange. I never managed to go past the theory stage as the costs are quite high for minimum quantity although you would not need to use that much.
I think a company that supplies certain chemicals possibly could broker a deal and handle the health safety and utilisation side, but it would probably not be economically viable, and the potential risks quite high. Thus unlikely that someone would entertain it.
I have to say that this was not that scientific and only one manufacturer was contacted, but that was about the only one I could find!!!!
Gazzer
The problem appears that a small portion of dye goes a very long way indeed, and thus health and safety issues arise. Also, the stuff is used on the full size in fairly large quantity so the supply is in big drums. I am trying to find the email I had from the manufacturer, the sales team were helpful but the technical guys just not interested.
I then thought of using diesel dye as used to prevent fuel theft, which seem to come in yellow, blue and orange. I never managed to go past the theory stage as the costs are quite high for minimum quantity although you would not need to use that much.
I think a company that supplies certain chemicals possibly could broker a deal and handle the health safety and utilisation side, but it would probably not be economically viable, and the potential risks quite high. Thus unlikely that someone would entertain it.
I have to say that this was not that scientific and only one manufacturer was contacted, but that was about the only one I could find!!!!
Gazzer
07-18-2005, 03:07 PM
#6
Senior Member
My Feedback: (26)
RE: Coloured smoke?
At present is no way to make colored smoke using smoke oil. The colored smoke seen generated from full scale aircraft are produced by injecting microscopic metalic colored chips in the engines exhaust stream. I believe Bob Violetts Models was working on this problem two years ago.
07-18-2005, 03:24 PM
#7
RE: Coloured smoke?
Pay your local weaver a visit and buy some fabric dye from him. It is fairly cheap, and the full size jets use it quite a lot.
If you're located in england, give RAF Scampton a call and ask for the red arrows dye team. Thats where the guy is from who i got the info how it works. If you ask nicely i'm sure they'll tell you where they get it at a good price, and might even be able to spare a liter or two for trial purposes.....
Regards
Hank
PS: black should work that way, too...but what a mess
If you're located in england, give RAF Scampton a call and ask for the red arrows dye team. Thats where the guy is from who i got the info how it works. If you ask nicely i'm sure they'll tell you where they get it at a good price, and might even be able to spare a liter or two for trial purposes.....
Regards
Hank
PS: black should work that way, too...but what a mess
07-18-2005, 05:42 PM
#8
Senior Member
RE: Coloured smoke?
Pretty to see that there is a much of powered half knowledge.
Colored smoke is possible and very easy as well. It is a dye from the textile. I have seen several times red and yellow smoke on some jet events here in germany. Just mix it with your smoke oil. The only thing that is true is that it will color everything! If it ones get to your plane, you never will get it awyay!
Ask here to buy it: www.jetwelt.de or www.mikes-models.co.uk.
Both used red and yellow dye. They also tried blue but not a good effect to blue sky. black is impossible
Andreas
Colored smoke is possible and very easy as well. It is a dye from the textile. I have seen several times red and yellow smoke on some jet events here in germany. Just mix it with your smoke oil. The only thing that is true is that it will color everything! If it ones get to your plane, you never will get it awyay!
Ask here to buy it: www.jetwelt.de or www.mikes-models.co.uk.
Both used red and yellow dye. They also tried blue but not a good effect to blue sky. black is impossible
Andreas
07-19-2005, 11:02 AM
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RE: Coloured smoke?
F22 Raptor,
Sorry about my part knowledge like I said I only tried once, but I was grateful for your links and excitedly checked out the sites expectant to find coloured smoke systems or Farbe Rauchen.
I could find neither references and upon exploring the sites could not see anything. Clearly I must be mistaken so would be grateful if you could show me the coloured smoke systems that are implied on your email.
I would imagine you could explain how it is done as you must have more knowledge than I, so be very grateful if you could tell us from your experiences how it all works together.
Just why is black impossible, when there are black textile dyes?
Gazzer
Sorry about my part knowledge like I said I only tried once, but I was grateful for your links and excitedly checked out the sites expectant to find coloured smoke systems or Farbe Rauchen.
I could find neither references and upon exploring the sites could not see anything. Clearly I must be mistaken so would be grateful if you could show me the coloured smoke systems that are implied on your email.
I would imagine you could explain how it is done as you must have more knowledge than I, so be very grateful if you could tell us from your experiences how it all works together.
Just why is black impossible, when there are black textile dyes?
Gazzer
07-20-2005, 01:24 AM
#13
Senior Member
RE: Coloured smoke?
OK,
no problem to explain how it works.
The miracle is that you don't have to mix the dye with the smoker oil! So, The real plane have a nice solution for it. Far away of the outlet is a small Tube wich sprays this dye in the already existing white smoke.
This is likely to explain with ink mixed with water (you need plenty to color it) or paint on white paper (just few dye will color)
So This mens you have to use normal smoker oil from one bottle plus an additional bottle with the smoker fluid to be sprayed into the smoke BEHIND the outlet.
Way complicated?? No its nor because also Bennie van de Goor of AMT Metherlands had used it in his BobCat with blue colored smoke.
Here is the company that manufactures the dye: http://www.rohmhaas.com/markers/cont...ro_smokes.html
The links i gave: YOU HAVE TO ASK THEM BY MAIL!! They are not selling it official!
OH, you'r welcome
no problem to explain how it works.
The miracle is that you don't have to mix the dye with the smoker oil! So, The real plane have a nice solution for it. Far away of the outlet is a small Tube wich sprays this dye in the already existing white smoke.
This is likely to explain with ink mixed with water (you need plenty to color it) or paint on white paper (just few dye will color)
So This mens you have to use normal smoker oil from one bottle plus an additional bottle with the smoker fluid to be sprayed into the smoke BEHIND the outlet.
Way complicated?? No its nor because also Bennie van de Goor of AMT Metherlands had used it in his BobCat with blue colored smoke.
Here is the company that manufactures the dye: http://www.rohmhaas.com/markers/cont...ro_smokes.html
The links i gave: YOU HAVE TO ASK THEM BY MAIL!! They are not selling it official!
OH, you'r welcome
07-20-2005, 01:27 AM
#14
Senior Member
RE: Coloured smoke?
Just if you still not believe:
Dear Sir!,
Thank you for your enquiry through our Web Site regarding generation of Coloured Smokes in Aerobatic Aircraft.
I can confirm that our products are capable of providing coloured smoke with Model aircraft, on condition that the Jet Eflux temperature is adequate and the flow rate of smoking liquids to provide sufficiently dense a colour, however from general experience I also know that a number of Turbine engines run in R/C planes run at a dramatically lower temperatures full scale jet engines.
I attach an information sheet aimed at full scale users which I am sure you can adapt with consideration to the scale you are working in.
Also,
It is our experience with the few Remote Control Aerobatic teams that have sucessfully smoked colours, that the consumption of dyes is rather low, certainly below our new commercial limits.
Please consider that you also need a "smoke base" i.e. the white smoke component, first.
I suggest evaluation of Automotive Diesel, or Heating Oil, or a light Spindle Oil (contact your local Oil Companies)
As an alternative you should review the usage of "Bio-Diesel" i.e. the Methyl Ester of Rapeseed Oil.
Once you have a stable white smoke, then commence work on a coloured system.
I would propose that you seriously consider the purchase of the following dyes from our a company who repacks Rohm and Haas Dyes - Keystone Europe in the United Kingdom in 1 litre quantities:
Automate Red IKHF - Non- Hazardous for Transport
Automate Yellow HF - Non-Hazardous for Transport
If you make your evaluation on the Red or Yellow, (For which the freight cost will be very low due to non-hazardous for transport ratings ), then if succesful I then suggest you move onto the Blue, which due to being a slightly higher hazard product (Similar hazard to Diesel) then the most expensive product for transport goes only when you are sure it works
Automate Blue 8AHF - Marine Pollutant and Hazardous for Transport
If you make your evaluation on the Red or Yellow, (For which the freight cost will be very low due to non-hazardous for transport ratings )
If you wish to purchase drums of 100 Kilograms, please do not hesitate to contact us
Yours faithfully
Warren Smith
Account Manager, Organic Specialties
Process Chemicals Group
Rohm and Haas (UK) Ltd
Lennig House, 2 Mason's Avenue , CROYDON, CR9 3NB United Kingdom
Tel +44 (0) 20 8774 5300 Fax +44 (0) 20 8774 5301
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 7711 776605
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8774 5546
Order Placement Fax +32 (0) 3 451 3634
e-mail: [email protected]
IF, with your existing smoke pipe arrangement you find that the coloured smoke appears "thin" and in ground testing , you find a significant amount of the dye is beng "sprayed" onto the ground / behind the craft, then I suggest evaluating chaning the smoke pipe alignment, such that the pipe exit is 45 degrees from the jet eflux. the experiment with other angles - i.e 30 degrees though to 60 degrees. These angles have been found optimal in Military display teams.
All military teams utlise one compartment for each pre-mixed smoking liquid - i.e. the Red Arrows, PAF etc all have 3 tanks - 1 for the Red Premix, 1 for White and 1 for Blue Premix.
You may also choose to review splitting the single pipe into two exits, in order to increase the dispersion of the smoking liquid into the jet eflux. (the red arrows use three, contrary to the popular belief that each pipe is for a single colour, this is incorrect, all three smoke liquids exit from all three pipes to maximise dispersion of the dye. But of course this is really a step to take only if you need to!
Temperatures of 500 C sound excellent for colour generation.
If you feel that you would wish to review purchase of 109 kilogram drums then please let us know
Many thanks
Warren Smith
Account Manager, Organic Specialties
Process Chemicals Group
Rohm and Haas (UK) Ltd
Lennig House, 2 Mason's Avenue , CROYDON, CR9 3NB United Kingdom
Tel +44 (0) 20 8774 5300 Fax +44 (0) 20 8774 5301
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 7711 776605
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8774 5546
Order Placement Fax +32 (0) 3 451 3634
e-mail: [email protected]
www.rohmhaas.com/markers
www.rohmhaas.com/road
www.primenes.com
==================================================
Additional notes for you
the main reasons I recommend Automate Red IKHF and / or Automate Yellow HF to you are as follows:-
VERY low hazard solvent. easy / cheap / simple to transport / Not too agressive toward plastics.
Automate Red BD90 is roughly the same price as Automate Red IKHF and stronger (approx ratio is 90/55), but it is in Xylene Solvent.
This is flammable - so transporting the liquid is more costly as much more paperwork is required. You need to be a little more careful in handling the dye (no sparks etc whilst the lid is open)
Xylene is also MUCH more aggressive in dissolving plastics than the Hydrotreated Napthenic Solvent in the Red IKHF and the Yellow HF
Hope that this additional information help you.
In terms of the ratio of Dye to Diesel, this can be varied.
The Red Arrows utlise 1 part dye to 8 parts diesel during training
Then 1 part dye to 2 parts diesel toward the end of training
1 part dye to 1 part diesel for normal use
2 parts dye to 1 part diesel for special events
3 parts dye to 1 part diesel for extra special occasions
PAF
Variable from 3 parts dye to 2 parts diesel , up to 9 parts dye, 1 part diesel
These teams obviously use custom manufactured variants of the dyes we recommend to yourself, but the physical active colourants are the same.
thanks
Warren Smith
Account Manager, Organic Specialties
Process Chemicals Group
Rohm and Haas (UK) Ltd
Lennig House, 2 Mason's Avenue , CROYDON, CR9 3NB United Kingdom
Tel +44 (0) 20 8774 5300 Fax +44 (0) 20 8774 5301
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 7711 776605
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8774 5546
Order Placement Fax +32 (0) 3 451 3634
e-mail: [email protected]
www.rohmhaas.com/markers
www.rohmhaas.com/road
www.primenes.com
==================================================
For USA based companies requiring small (1 kilogram) volumes of dye please contact Keystone Aniline in Chicago:-
www.dyes.com
Please specify the Rohm and Haas products by name to Keystone Aniline
Warren Smith
Account Manager, Organic Specialties
Process Chemicals Group
Rohm and Haas (UK) Ltd
Lennig House, 2 Mason's Avenue , CROYDON, CR9 3NB United Kingdom
Tel +44 (0) 20 8774 5300 Fax +44 (0) 20 8774 5301
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 7711 776605
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8774 5546
Order Placement Fax +32 (0) 3 451 3634
e-mail: [email protected]
www.rohmhaas.com/markers
www.rohmhaas.com/road
www.primenes.com
==================================================
Dear Sir!,
Thank you for your enquiry through our Web Site regarding generation of Coloured Smokes in Aerobatic Aircraft.
I can confirm that our products are capable of providing coloured smoke with Model aircraft, on condition that the Jet Eflux temperature is adequate and the flow rate of smoking liquids to provide sufficiently dense a colour, however from general experience I also know that a number of Turbine engines run in R/C planes run at a dramatically lower temperatures full scale jet engines.
I attach an information sheet aimed at full scale users which I am sure you can adapt with consideration to the scale you are working in.
Also,
It is our experience with the few Remote Control Aerobatic teams that have sucessfully smoked colours, that the consumption of dyes is rather low, certainly below our new commercial limits.
Please consider that you also need a "smoke base" i.e. the white smoke component, first.
I suggest evaluation of Automotive Diesel, or Heating Oil, or a light Spindle Oil (contact your local Oil Companies)
As an alternative you should review the usage of "Bio-Diesel" i.e. the Methyl Ester of Rapeseed Oil.
Once you have a stable white smoke, then commence work on a coloured system.
I would propose that you seriously consider the purchase of the following dyes from our a company who repacks Rohm and Haas Dyes - Keystone Europe in the United Kingdom in 1 litre quantities:
Automate Red IKHF - Non- Hazardous for Transport
Automate Yellow HF - Non-Hazardous for Transport
If you make your evaluation on the Red or Yellow, (For which the freight cost will be very low due to non-hazardous for transport ratings ), then if succesful I then suggest you move onto the Blue, which due to being a slightly higher hazard product (Similar hazard to Diesel) then the most expensive product for transport goes only when you are sure it works
Automate Blue 8AHF - Marine Pollutant and Hazardous for Transport
If you make your evaluation on the Red or Yellow, (For which the freight cost will be very low due to non-hazardous for transport ratings )
If you wish to purchase drums of 100 Kilograms, please do not hesitate to contact us
Yours faithfully
Warren Smith
Account Manager, Organic Specialties
Process Chemicals Group
Rohm and Haas (UK) Ltd
Lennig House, 2 Mason's Avenue , CROYDON, CR9 3NB United Kingdom
Tel +44 (0) 20 8774 5300 Fax +44 (0) 20 8774 5301
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 7711 776605
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8774 5546
Order Placement Fax +32 (0) 3 451 3634
e-mail: [email protected]
IF, with your existing smoke pipe arrangement you find that the coloured smoke appears "thin" and in ground testing , you find a significant amount of the dye is beng "sprayed" onto the ground / behind the craft, then I suggest evaluating chaning the smoke pipe alignment, such that the pipe exit is 45 degrees from the jet eflux. the experiment with other angles - i.e 30 degrees though to 60 degrees. These angles have been found optimal in Military display teams.
All military teams utlise one compartment for each pre-mixed smoking liquid - i.e. the Red Arrows, PAF etc all have 3 tanks - 1 for the Red Premix, 1 for White and 1 for Blue Premix.
You may also choose to review splitting the single pipe into two exits, in order to increase the dispersion of the smoking liquid into the jet eflux. (the red arrows use three, contrary to the popular belief that each pipe is for a single colour, this is incorrect, all three smoke liquids exit from all three pipes to maximise dispersion of the dye. But of course this is really a step to take only if you need to!
Temperatures of 500 C sound excellent for colour generation.
If you feel that you would wish to review purchase of 109 kilogram drums then please let us know
Many thanks
Warren Smith
Account Manager, Organic Specialties
Process Chemicals Group
Rohm and Haas (UK) Ltd
Lennig House, 2 Mason's Avenue , CROYDON, CR9 3NB United Kingdom
Tel +44 (0) 20 8774 5300 Fax +44 (0) 20 8774 5301
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 7711 776605
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8774 5546
Order Placement Fax +32 (0) 3 451 3634
e-mail: [email protected]
www.rohmhaas.com/markers
www.rohmhaas.com/road
www.primenes.com
==================================================
Additional notes for you
the main reasons I recommend Automate Red IKHF and / or Automate Yellow HF to you are as follows:-
VERY low hazard solvent. easy / cheap / simple to transport / Not too agressive toward plastics.
Automate Red BD90 is roughly the same price as Automate Red IKHF and stronger (approx ratio is 90/55), but it is in Xylene Solvent.
This is flammable - so transporting the liquid is more costly as much more paperwork is required. You need to be a little more careful in handling the dye (no sparks etc whilst the lid is open)
Xylene is also MUCH more aggressive in dissolving plastics than the Hydrotreated Napthenic Solvent in the Red IKHF and the Yellow HF
Hope that this additional information help you.
In terms of the ratio of Dye to Diesel, this can be varied.
The Red Arrows utlise 1 part dye to 8 parts diesel during training
Then 1 part dye to 2 parts diesel toward the end of training
1 part dye to 1 part diesel for normal use
2 parts dye to 1 part diesel for special events
3 parts dye to 1 part diesel for extra special occasions
PAF
Variable from 3 parts dye to 2 parts diesel , up to 9 parts dye, 1 part diesel
These teams obviously use custom manufactured variants of the dyes we recommend to yourself, but the physical active colourants are the same.
thanks
Warren Smith
Account Manager, Organic Specialties
Process Chemicals Group
Rohm and Haas (UK) Ltd
Lennig House, 2 Mason's Avenue , CROYDON, CR9 3NB United Kingdom
Tel +44 (0) 20 8774 5300 Fax +44 (0) 20 8774 5301
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 7711 776605
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8774 5546
Order Placement Fax +32 (0) 3 451 3634
e-mail: [email protected]
www.rohmhaas.com/markers
www.rohmhaas.com/road
www.primenes.com
==================================================
For USA based companies requiring small (1 kilogram) volumes of dye please contact Keystone Aniline in Chicago:-
www.dyes.com
Please specify the Rohm and Haas products by name to Keystone Aniline
Warren Smith
Account Manager, Organic Specialties
Process Chemicals Group
Rohm and Haas (UK) Ltd
Lennig House, 2 Mason's Avenue , CROYDON, CR9 3NB United Kingdom
Tel +44 (0) 20 8774 5300 Fax +44 (0) 20 8774 5301
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 7711 776605
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8774 5546
Order Placement Fax +32 (0) 3 451 3634
e-mail: [email protected]
www.rohmhaas.com/markers
www.rohmhaas.com/road
www.primenes.com
==================================================
The following users liked this post:
Daveeast (12-13-2021)
07-20-2005, 05:08 AM
#16
Senior Member
RE: Coloured smoke?
great!! This was the picture i was looking for. I had a similar one from the switzerland aerobatic team.
The difference between this installation and our minimodels is that we have not enough heat at this point (when thrust tube is used) the dye needs 500°C as described above and so this installation has to be done in the thrust tube near to the turbine outlet. also you can see the 4th tube on the left side which is the tube for the white smoke, the 3 other tubes then are for the color itself.
The difference between this installation and our minimodels is that we have not enough heat at this point (when thrust tube is used) the dye needs 500°C as described above and so this installation has to be done in the thrust tube near to the turbine outlet. also you can see the 4th tube on the left side which is the tube for the white smoke, the 3 other tubes then are for the color itself.
07-20-2005, 06:11 AM
#17
RE: Coloured smoke?
Raptor, the center injection tube is responsible for the white smoke . The right and left ones are the colors, respectively. At least that was the explanation of team lead 2003....
The tube on the left is not pointing into the exhaust and can therefore not be used for smoke generation (no heat)....it is probably just a vent or similar...
The tube on the left is not pointing into the exhaust and can therefore not be used for smoke generation (no heat)....it is probably just a vent or similar...
