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Radio interference - 1/8/2002 12:09:09 AM   
3dpilot



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From: St. Charles, IL, USA
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I have a 35% cap that continued to get radio interference when range checking. With and without the motor running. I then put in a i4c isolator and still same problem. I finally put in a pcm reciever and fixed the problem.

Same problem with my 30% extra. pcm fixed problems.

But what I dont understand is I have a 35 % extra running ppm reciever. Never had a problem with it.

On my cap, I tried everything from , rerouting servo wires, changing from 6v to 4.8 v, rerouting antenna , moving batteries, and nothing fixed except pcm.

I would like to run ppm in most of these planes just because of cost, but not willing to wreck plane for matter of $100. Any body else have similar situations?

thanks
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Radio interference - 1/9/2002 7:38:07 AM   
Forgues Research



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Be very carefull in assuming you have fixed the problem with the use of a PCM receiver. You have only masked it. Go back to the PPM receiver and then find the problem and fix it. If not, it will get back on the PCM receiver and then it will lock up andbite the farm.
I use only Fiber Optic servo extensions in my airplane and never had a problem. Also, with Fiber Optics, you can even install your throttle servo in the engine compartment with the only link from the servo to the receiver is a piece Fiber Optic cable with no feed back into the receiver.

Roger

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fiber optic servo wires? - 1/9/2002 8:33:43 PM   
3dpilot



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First thing : never heard of fiber optic servo wires? Something new?

Second thing. I tried everything to find prob. I moved servo wires, antenna wire, changed recievers 3 times to different freq., changed batteries , reloc. batteries, tried sheilding servo wires, tried routing antenna outside fuse, tried running just one servo at a time to see if it was a single servo. and more that Ive forgotten about.

I did think about the fact I was just masking the prob with pcm, but had no other option. Ive flown both planes now all summer with no problems.

I was hoping with all these pilots visiting these threads, somebody would just say OH---- thats happened to me and I did this.__________

Let me know more about these fiber optic servo extensions though. Cost, why there better, how they work , etc.

thanks

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Radio interference - 1/9/2002 9:26:17 PM   
Forgues Research



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You might want to look at this first, where I explain a bit about it.
http://www.geocities.com/roger_forgues/Aerografixs.html

Anymore questions, I will be happy to help.
The main reason behind my development of the Fiber Optic servo extensions was to eleminate the long servo wire problems and to isolate the reveiver from everything.

Roger

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       Post #: 4

GLITCH TROUBLE - 1/10/2002 2:24:00 AM   
RCRC


 

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3dpilot, it looks like you tried a lot of things. I agree with aerografixs that pcm is somewhat of a band-aid fix intended to allow the servos to "ride over the rough spots" and can cover up a real problem. Best to fix the problem, then add the PCM recvr for insurance!

I would start out with the receiver in the aircraft connected to a battery pack and one servo. If you can get this much to work then you can start connecting the other components. (it sounds like you already did this)

If you can't get the range you expect, then remove the receiver and connect to one servo and a battery on top of a cardboard box or something non-conductive. Extend ant wire upward at a 45 degree angle. Tape to a wooden dowel stick. (Range will be shorter off the end of wire, but this is the way an aircraft is on take-off.) Short range here means "send in radio for repair".

A couple more ideas:
How about the transmitter or module you used for the ppm receivers? Low RF output could reduce the range.

What frequency(s) are involved? If ppm rcvr is on a different frequency than the pcm, it may be a local interference.

I have heard that metal reinforcement in paving could influence a range test in some(probably dry) areas.

How about metal to metal contact somewhere in the aircraft? This can reduce range even without the engine running sometimes.

What about carbon fiber used in airframe construction? Some coverings may also be semi-conductive. Could the antenna be influenced by these?

Your best antenna situation is for the ant wire to exit fuselage very close to the receiver, then extend away from the fuselage. You might try this with ant wire taped to a simple vertical balsa stick for range testing.

There is a lot of advantage to a vertical antenna in large aircraft. But I usually run mine to the top of vert fin. You can extend it with fish line if necessary.

Isolating indivdual sections of long wiring systems can be effective too. I like aerografixs optical isolator and it looks like just the thing to reduce coupled ignition interference. But first you must get the radio receiver to operate correctly with just one servo and a battery and go from there.

< Message edited by RCRC -- Jan 9 2002 9:32PM >

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       Post #: 5

glitches - 1/10/2002 9:10:21 PM   
3dpilot



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RCRC

Thanks for the info. I appreciate you taking the time to help.

I am flying with a futaba 8uap radio. Channel 22. All of my planes are on this freq. Never had probs with any others. Just these two giants. No metal to metal. Tried with antenna out of fuse on stick, Have not tried with reciever on box though. I did put a total of 3 different recievers in , all with the same results. I tried it with just one servo at a time and got interference with each one. No carbon fiber, no metalic covering, just problems. My ignition battery is seperated from my reciever battery. I also have a servo pack battery now with the i4c isolator. I thought for sure the isolator would fix it. Like I said the only thing that fixed(masked) it was the pcm. ""But it works fine now" and I range check it every time I fly with motor on and off.

Now that Im typing , I rembered that I do have metal gear servos in this plane and not in any of my other ones. That is the only variable I have. I should do a range ck plugging in regular servos and see what happens.???????

Thanks again for the help. I really appreciate it

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       Post #: 6

Glitches - 1/12/2002 8:20:26 AM   
RCPilot100



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I fly giant scale - I have 2 35% Carden Extras, 1 1/3 Laser, 1 1/3 Scale Spacewalker. I had glitches on my 2cnd Carden. The only difference between the two was a bigger engine and digital servos. Like you, I tried 4 different receivers - two of which were PCM. I tried all kinds of stuff and finally figured out I had some kind of feedback loop causing glitches and shimmies. Playing around for about an hour trying different routings and stuff, I finally came to the conclusion that the digital servos were 1) causing lots of power to be drawn through one receiver, and 2) the digital servos with their power drain and wire length combined were causing a feedback through the receiver. Sure enough, when I disconnected one aileron servo, everything was solid like a rock. Well, I ordered two Hitec Supreme receivers, pulled my 3000 Mah pack, put in another switch harness, 2 1700 Mah packs and the two Hitec receivers. Half the servos one one receiver, half on the other. Now, the thing is rock solid - a whole season of flying - and not one more glitch. I am recovering my first Carden now because of the PCM reciever - I had problems with the interferance but did not know it until it was too late. No more PCM for me - two Hitec Supreme's per Giant scale - each with their own battery pack and switch.

Dan

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Radio interference - 1/12/2002 7:15:43 PM   
3dpilot



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Thanks Dan

That is the only thing I havent tried. When things thaw out around here, Ill give that a try.

dave

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Glitches? - 1/12/2002 7:44:22 PM   
ROGER RUSSELL



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I had glitches in my gasser also, had to eliminate the 6 volt regulator and changed out my 40/60 size on off switch. Trying to find the glitch one day I just started to move everything around and noticed that when I touched or moved the regulator that I would get movement. Do you use a 6 volt regulator? Took mine out and changed to JR 649 receiver and have not had any since. Sure is frustrating!!! Also put in a heavy duty JR switch
RORO


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Radio interference - 1/12/2002 7:57:20 PM   
3dpilot



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RORO

No I dont use a regulator. With Futaba, dont need to use a regulator. On my cap I have the isolator, but on my extra Just strait reciever. Both are 6 volt.

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Glitches - 1/12/2002 7:59:29 PM   
RCPilot100



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I use 4.8 volt battery packs. When I put my first Giant together, I had glitches on 6 volts - tried all kinds of stuff - and ended up back on 4.8 volts because there were no glitches at that voltage. Now remember, this was all trial and error. Now, I have learned that when using 6 volt battery packs, you get more torque but at a higher current drain. Given the other stuff I have learned from trial and error, the high current drain is what I suspect contributed to my glitching. My theory is that the high current drain was at or exceeded the limit of what the receiver could handle. Remember, on our big stuff, we are using receivers that only had to handle 120 sized aircraft until the current crop of big ones showed up. Sure there were big aircraft awhile back, but they weren't being asked to do what we want to today - the requirements for power to the servos has increased dramatically. At some events I have been at and talked to the names we read about in the magazines and was able to look at their planes, the factory sponsored guys were all using two receivers - mostly PCM. Given I don't trust PCM - given I am not given PCM by a sponsor, I settled on Hitech Supreme PPM. Last night my buddy that I fly with called - he has been arguing with me about the correct installation of receivers and packs for the past two years - and told me to go look at Andy Low's Electrodynamics web site and read his tip of the month. It is all about voltages and current draw and stuff, but what I learned from it is that I am on the right track - we have been asking our receivers to handle too much curent draw and it needs to be decreased. Given the relative cost of an extra receiver, switch harness and battery against what a 35% Carden costs, it is cheap and simple - you don't need to be an electronics wizard to figure it out.

Dan

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       Post #: 11

PCM or FM - 1/13/2002 5:27:11 AM   
SteveBoy-RCU


 

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Hey there RCPILOT100, I am considering upgrading my TX and am considering either the Hitec Eclipse (FM) or JR X-378 (PCM).

There is external interference at our field and I thought that the PCM system would have coped with this better that just the PPM.
Please explain your viewpoint why you wouldn't use PCM again?

Thanks

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       Post #: 12

PCM or FM - 1/13/2002 6:13:27 AM   
RCPilot100



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Ok, I'll give you MY perspective on PPM versus PCM, without all the technical stuff that can be argued about six ways from Sunday. I will give my simplified description that I am sure will get debated, but is more or less the way it works.

Both transmit signals the same way, via FM transmission. With a PPM Tx, the signal that represents stick movement is sent to the receiver which sends signals to the servos which cause movement. When all is ok, the servos move in proportion to the stick movement. When there is interference, the servos glitch or jerk or shimmy. Basically, you see the interfernece with PPM - this is what is important to note.

With PCM, the stick movement is first coded and then sent to the PCM receiver. The receiver decodes the signal and checks that the signal is OK using a checksum in the coded signal. Pretty cool stuff here. When the checksum is confirmed, the signals are sent to the servos to represent stick movement. But, when the checksum is not OK, which is caused by some kind of interference, no signal is sent to the servos. Given that the interference continues for a sufficient period of time, the receiver goes into failsafe. With this way of doing business, fly through brief periods of interference. Only when it stays bad for an extended period of time does the plane go into failsafe. Failsafe without a BTA autopilot does nothing for you - you either stay in the condition of your last control inputs before interference, or you go to a preset condtion that you set up.

Now, the real world difference between the two. On one of my 35% Extras, I was using a PCM setup. Intermittent interference - and I didn't know it was there - the plane flew right through it. But, it kept getting worse, and I didn't know it until the receiver went into failsafe. It went into failsafe while I was coming in for a landing. Far downwind at 1/4 throttle lined up nice with the runway, it went into failsafe and kept going - at 1/4 throttle - across the runway - past the runway - and into the ground about 300 feet beyond - @ $1,000.00 damage. What I finally found out was that I had an intermittent condition that caused the interference - for about a year - and I didn't know it because the way PCM works, it masked the fact that it was there. Had it been a PPM setup, a year prior I would have noticed glitches and grounded the plane until I figured out what was going on.

Consider, my Extras are @ $3,500 apiece, 6-12 months to get one ready to fly. I just got a new 9Z WC2 with a PCM receiver. I sold the PCM receiver and bought 2 Hitec Supremes. Both my Extra's will be set up this way this summer as well as my 1/3 scale Laser 200. After trial and error, seeing what the other guys use that fly big birds, and much research, I am going to use this setup on about $10,000 worth of airplanes.

Dan

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Failsafe? - 1/13/2002 9:04:00 AM   
ROGER RUSSELL



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Please correct me if I am wrong,
But on my JR783 radio I have to set my failsafe mode on to what ever (if any) channel I want to go into failsafe mode.
I have all mine programmed off/out so none will go to failsafe.
So I guess what I am saying is I should see glitches/or interference if I have any without failsafe?
Can you progr