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RE: E85 - 4/28/2008 2:09:06 PM   
sopwith


 

Posts: 29
Joined: 3/12/2006
From: Canon City, CO, USA
Status: offline 		I have been doing more flying with E85 fuel, and have started having problems with the Thunderbolt 115480 glow plugs. Previously I posted that these are the only plugs that seem to make the engine run well with no premature failures. I have had one coil burn out and one where the coil still has continuity but will not run the engine with the glow heater removed. The last one will run an engine fine using 15% Omega (Morgan fuels). These are cheap plugs and it looks like they just have plated coils, and the platinum burns off eventually. With methanol fuel less platinum is needed. It isstarting to look like one would be wise to have some methanol in the fuel mix. Hopefully someone out there with more knowlege of plugs than I have will find the perfect plug, as that is the big hurtle in using E85 fuel. With rapid plug burn outs, it makes the cost of using the fuel as expensive as commertial fuel. Note the one plug that still has continuity but will not run on E85 was in an OS FP .25, a rather mild engine that does not run especially hot.

(in reply to mpalermo)
       Post #: 51

RE: E85 - 4/28/2008 3:37:27 PM   
balsaeater


 

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: p, ANDORRA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sopwith

I have been doing more flying with E85 fuel, and have started having problems with the Thunderbolt 115480 glow plugs.....
...edit...

.....Note the one plug that still has continuity but will not run on E85 was in an OS FP .25, a rather mild engine that does not run especially hot.



yes if we need to change glow plus more often the saving will be more limited

I will probably start with experments with a
30% E85 mix
55% methanol
10% EDL Synthetic oil and
5% nitro

As you say maybe a E85 methanol mix will work better

I know in the 1960 's era they often had a lot of different ingredients in fuel including 5 % gasoile petrol

They they gradually settled on the pure Methanol mix probably becuase of glow issues and the stuff in that time was cheaper

For me Methanol neat costs ~$13 a USA gallon in small amounts and ~$10 a USA gallon in 55 gallon drum

E85 costs at $ 6 a USA gallon mixed in at 30% will give me approx 50% saving on fuel costs if it works

keep us posted

balsaeater



(in reply to sopwith)
       Post #: 52

RE: E85 - 5/18/2008 6:25:28 PM   
jeffie8696



Posts: 890
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: coralville, IA, USA
Status: online 		May be a little off topic but I have been running E85 in my 89 Plymouth with no ill effects. I think everyone is being overly cautious about the stuff. I wouldn't run it in a 2 stroke weedeater without a compatible lube like castor but in the old Plymouth, no problems. And at $1.00 a gallon less than regular.

_____________________________

Castor, its like Vitamin C for glow engines.OK now that I have mastered the taking off part and the crashing part what next

(in reply to balsaeater)
       Post #: 53

RE: E85 - 5/22/2008 4:44:38 AM   
sopwith


 

Posts: 29
Joined: 3/12/2006
From: Canon City, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Again off topic...how did you change the fuel ration for the E85, does someone have a conversion kit for carburetors and fuel injectors?

(in reply to jeffie8696)
       Post #: 54

RE: E85 - 5/22/2008 6:21:32 PM   
jeffie8696



Posts: 890
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: coralville, IA, USA
Status: online 		There are a few things to consider. ONe is I don't run it full strength only about 50 50. others are you need an in tank fuel pump , you can't use a suction type pump because you will be inviting vapor lock. Try this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU I had to bump up the timing a little for the best performance. Now I can run it full strength.

< Message edited by jeffie8696 -- 5/29/2008 2:32:15 AM >

_____________________________

Castor, its like Vitamin C for glow engines.OK now that I have mastered the taking off part and the crashing part what next

(in reply to sopwith)
       Post #: 55

RE: E85 - 6/19/2008 6:21:35 AM   
jeffie8696



Posts: 890
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: coralville, IA, USA
Status: online 		I did a recent test using summer blend E85 in a .25 size engine that although had seen better days was still very serviceable. Baseline Morgans 5% nitro Hanger 9 plug 9X6 prop. gave 11,800
Then I mixed up just E85 with 20% castor. got 11,300 but it wants a very hot plug!
Next I mixed the morgans 5% and E85 mix together and got 11,500 with the same hanger 9 plug.
My calculations say I can make E85/20%castor mix for $6.88 a gallon. If I mix it 50/50 with my regular nitro fuel the savings could really add up.
I also found a little acetone in the Plymouth works wonders. I advanced the cam slightly to improve the low speed torque and plan to increase the fuel pressure slightly to provide better air fuel ratio. I can now run the E85 about 70% without too much driveability issues. Being such an old car it has issues on regular gas too.
I did not try any acetone in my glow testing but it seems reasonable especially if minor amounts can be used since the cost is about $5.00 a guart .

_____________________________

Castor, its like Vitamin C for glow engines.OK now that I have mastered the taking off part and the crashing part what next

(in reply to jeffie8696)
       Post #: 56

RE: E85 - 6/19/2008 1:08:33 PM   
balsaeater


 

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: p, ANDORRA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffie8696

I did a recent test using summer blend E85 in a .25 size engine that although had seen
better days was still very serviceable. Baseline Morgans 5% nitro Hanger 9 plug 9X6
prop. gave 11,800
Then I mixed up just E85 with 20% castor. got 11,300 but it wants a very hot plug!
Next I mixed the morgans 5% and E85 mix together and got 11,500 with the same hanger 9
plug.
My calculations say I can make E85/20%castor mix for $6.88 a gallon. If I mix it 50/50
with my regular nitro fuel the savings could really add up.
I also found a little acetone in the Plymouth works wonders. I advanced the cam slightly
to improve the low speed torque and plan to increase the fuel pressure slightly to
provide better air fuel ratio. I can now run the E85 about 70% without too much
driveability issues. Being such an old car it has issues on regular gas too.
I did not try any acetone in my glow testing but it seems reasonable especially if minor
amounts can be used since the cost is about $5.00 a guart .



Excellent info keep the information coming for both models and real automobiles
Acetone is best I can see is used at ~3% and would typically replace 5% nitro and
acetone helps the slow speed tick over of the model engines like nitro does but unlike
5% nitro has no benefit to top end that I can establish
Also Acetone is usually 1/3 the price of nitro and seems to only require ~3% so saving
seem to be possible such as replacing 5% nitro or instead of 10% nitro it seems 3%
acetone and 5% nitro would also work
I will probably do Acetone in my NEW 26cc MVVVS when it is run in as it is on 5% nitro
now
Then if that works for the 26CC MVVS motor I will start to try to give it some E85 and
as E85 is half the price per gallon of methanol for me if the motor can do 50% methanol
and 50% E85 without eating glow plugs then big saving are to be had for my model plane glow engines

But before lots of guys go throwing E85 into their own car fuel tanks these figures may help a bit to see if it is worth the effort


In 1974 fuel crisis as a teen I took my 50c c 4 gears Yamaha motorbike top speed ~50mph
and did a four run one track experiment with a 100cc of fuel

1 st run full tilt 4 th gear ~50 mph using 100cc of fuel until it ran out
= 1 run of one or 1 mile nearly exactly ~ 45MPG UK gal (~35USA gal)

2nd run full tilt 3rd gear ~35 mph using 100cc of fuel
= 2nd run of two times one mile or 2 miles exactly ~90MPG UK gal (~70USA gal)

3rd run slow as possible 4th gear ~20mph using 100cc of fuel until it ran out
= 3 runs of one mile or 3 miles nearly ~135MPG UK gal (~110 USA gal)

4 th run slow as possible 3rd gear ~10mph using 100cc of fuel until it ran out
= 4 runs of one mile or 4 miles nearly ~180MPG UK gal (~150 USA gal)

Actually I think from memory it had a bit a of fuel left over on the a last run of 4 miles enough for 5 to 6 runs so 250MPG might have been possible but I just couldn't take any more driving at a snails pace ~10mph

It strongly points to changing driving speeds can change MPG and costs more without changing fuels for most people



For those who wish to understand how to get the MAX MPG from any fuel the study of the
competition on ~2000MPG special lightweight Trikes on gasoline mostly using 50cc engines
http://www.shell.com/home/content/uk-en/news_and_library/press_releases/2007/uk_eco_marathon_060707.html
This competition shows often the best fuel figures they get are from accelerating slowly up to ~40MPH and switching off the engine .
Then they are free wheeling( engine off) back down to ~20MPH
Then they switch engine back on and repeating the cycle
This improved the previous ~1500 MPG from steady state speed driving at ~30 MPH to this newer solution floating from 40 to 20 MPH and returned ~2000MPG and so was beneficial on the
50cc engine scale


This brings me back to simplex experiments MPG done this year in my own two cars mostly done for my my late 1990's hatch back compact Suziki swift 1000cc and seldom used late 1990's Volvo V40 station wagon


I have gone from last year when I first bought the small car a modest ~35MPG UK (~30MPG USA
GALLON ) with normal driving to reaching ~65MPG UK (~55MPG USA GALLON ) with super
careful driving free wheeling engine running on tick over where possible (note free wheeling is for manual gear box cars but even coasting helps MPG for my friend a hyper miler in San Francisco who does good MPG on his Honda civic automatic )
Also being quicker to switch off engine in severe traffic jams or long traffic lights helps a bit
Most helpful of all methods for low MPG I figure is very slow acceleration just like a slow coach granny would do and again as well change into highest gears ASAP (accept going up hills an labouring engine ) and then rarely exceeding 45 MPH even on the high ways

Bumping up highway speeds to 55 MPH makes the the fuel figure drop to ~55MPG UK (~45MPG
USA GALLON or a ~15% increase in fuel consumption to gain a speed of ~12% more

I often do one week in the month a long commute of a total 70 miles per day (2*35 miles )so nowadays I usually set the the speed for ~50MPH a compromise that only costs me 10 minutes extra each way on the previous 1 hour single way journey time
commute
That makes it a 1 hour 10 minute commute each way but I get nearly the double MPG
staying below 50 MPH than going to 70MPH which is possible as most all the journey is
a highway commute

I am planning later on to try to add E85 fuels to the gasoline in increments to see what are the results
E85 fuel costs often 20% less than gasoline in my part of Europe ( about $ 7 plus a gallon USA and
still easily with higher taxes the double the USA fuel costs )

I would be hopeful that a 50% gasoline 50% E85 mix would return me a saving of an
extra 10% more again even with maybe a 10% drop in MPG as Alcohol fuels hopefully supply
more grunt and smoother running at lower RPM which can then recoup the lost power that
gasoline loses from knock affects

So for me the biggest fuel saving to be made could be from amputating the right foot of all
motorists which could save 30% of any countries car fuel bills immediately as they would be right foot less easier to retrain in fuel saving methods before changing to other fuels types like E85
or diesel whatever

It probably explains where the famous pre internet days classic mail order scam for 50% fuel
saving came from
The gee whiz high tech gizmo's you got through the postal service was a humble house brick to put under the gas pedal and it did actually save gas and improve MPG

(Please I don't want to debate the merits or safety issues of free wheeling of a my car or other cars
I mostly 90% of the time when I free wheel do it it is in heavy traffic at less than 30MPH on
straight roads in between the out of sync traffic lights so its not a big deal
Also having having got better with free-wheeling methods for more than 10,000 miles of real
intensive fuel saving driving methods to see how effective it is I have also increased the use of it on down hills good road dry conditions at speeds of up to ~50MPH including around mild corners mostly going down hills
Each hill or case of free wheeling is individual according to the local conditions where I precieve my own car can do it safely
The last 10,000 mile brake pad tests showed no signs of extra wear and tear from lack of drive shaft drag and extra braking required

(My perception of safety is based on having more than 100,000 miles driving under me
in many countries in several continents on every type of road from good highways to dirt tracks .
For me is up to every motorist to decide what type of driving they wish to conduct that they believe is safely possible in their own cars )

Nowadays I more rarely do the practice of free wheeling especially on straight highways as I found
the more constant fuel saving were to be made keeping a steady speed on the gas pedal and most benefits from free wheeling were to be found in slow down town traffic conditions free wheeling up to red traffic lights
Free wheeling experments on full size cars do not compare very favorably to the 2000MPG light weight expermental trikes success

It is very difficult to get gas pedal and engine RPM synchronised for engaging gears without
some sort of extra gas usage from changing gas pedal regimes
This made short or medium free wheeling events less interesting even in my small compact car
Also to factor in is the fact the modern cars are often coupled to power assisted brakes & steering and cant really allow switching engines off while driving .
This means the car engine has to stay on tick over when free wheeling reducing a lot of the saving from free wheeling

My best guess is most drivers as in probably 98% will not get any useful fuel saving with any free
wheeling over the benefits of simply coasting in higher gears but the older the car the
more chance to gain from free wheeling events
If the very older car is manual shift with manual steering and brakes and is allowing engine switch of solutions then more gain might be possible

The more modern high spec a car is with the new computer fuel engine monitoring systems the less likely the free wheeling will benefit the MPG for car
The modern engines control the fuel flow far better to match load demands
I think they even cut fuel off a lot when when coasting and low loads
Thus far my limited tests on my other late ninety's gas guzzling 25MPG Volvo V40 saloon car show no MPG benefits from free wheeling that I can establish on the small mileage I use that car possibly from the better fuel monitoring solutions it might have


(I mention free wheeling issues because there is always the famous lecture from some source about free wheeling issues )
(For USA 98% is automatic transmission so the problem doesn't really exist in the USA )

My talks with run of the mill taxi drivers using modern 5/6 gear Automatic gear box
cars using best economy setting for the shift drive indicates they gain a much better
MPG over manual shift versions of similar models of cars
This indicates the average manual shift gear box car driver stays too long in the wrong gears thereby using too much fuel
this means when possible my future car purchases will lean towards Automatic gear box
I figure even with the so called 10% loss in the oil slip gear box affect I figure it will probably get better MPG than manual gear box solutions


I estimate with my fairly low annual mileage 15,000 miles it will need to cost $50 a gallon for diesel or flex fuel cars extra premium costs to get back my capital outlay over present day gasoline solutions
If Flex fuel can work with out expensive gizmo's then it can be good for me
Even a $200 dollar kit to convert to flex fuel might take me 20,000 miles to get my money back or unless fuel goes to $30 a gallon

Hopefully some pointers can help some guys save a few $$$ and return some extra MPG

I hope this weekend to do a 400 mile return journey and will hopefully do decent at night at 55mph and return at daytime at 45mph so as to compare long distance advantages .
I estimate ball park 55 MPH will return ~55 gallon UK and 45 MPH will return ~70MPG UK but a long journey might show other results



Ralf

< Message edited by balsaeater -- 6/19/2008 2:03:39 PM >

(in reply to jeffie8696)
       Post #: 57

RE: E85 - 6/19/2008 2:02:58 PM   
Lille-bror



Posts: 29
Joined: 2/14/2008
From: Frederikshavn, DENMARK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: downunder
Engines will vary as to how they respond though. I did a quick and dirty mod to an ST 45 not long ago and only saw a 200 rev increase which worked out to about 4% extra HP but I was basing the before revs on a run I did long ago, not back to back.

Hey Down.

What is the gab between the piston and head on your Super Tigre GS 45 after the modification?



_____________________________

The picture shows the best talk show host ever: Erling Bundgaard, Denmark. He made the programs GREAT in the 80'' :-)

(in reply to downunder)
       Post #: 58

RE: E85 - 6/19/2008 4:29:19 PM   
jeffie8696



Posts: 890
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: coralville, IA, USA
Status: online 		BalsaChewer. The acetone in the E85 made the Plymouth much easier to start and also helped with a lean stumble. My fuel system after this many years is no doubt a little weak and when accelerating with high amounts of E85 will cause a stumble from the engine going too lean. (Younger drivers will not know this since it was much more common on pre fuel injected engines. ) this also happens with regular gas in the Plymouth but to a lesser extent. Therefore I need to find a way to increase the fuel pressure slightly so it will inject more fuel in the same injector cycle time. No small feat since the regulator is built in to the throttle body. I suppose I could disable the throttle body regulator and install a return line regulator but that costs money. I have spent nothing so far on my "adjustments" to E85. I believe the E85 mixing with glow fuel is significant since I can use my high nitro fuels that I already own to make lower nitro fuel.

_____________________________

Castor, its like Vitamin C for glow engines.OK now that I have mastered the taking off part and the crashing part what next

(in reply to Lille-bror)
       Post #: 59

RE: E85 - 6/19/2008 4:57:45 PM   
downunder



Posts: 3113
Joined: 10/10/2002
From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lille-bror
What is the gab between the piston and head on your Super Tigre GS 45 after the modification?

The before figures for the ST had the piston coming to within .2mm from the top of the liner and there's a .2mm shim fitted. The head itself had a .2mm recess to the squish band so in total the original squish clearance was .6mm (.0236" ). I machined off the seating area flush with the squish band and removed the shim so the head was lowered by .4mm leaving a .2mm (.008" ) clearance.

< Message edited by downunder -- 6/20/2008 5:21:30 PM >

(in reply to Lille-bror)
       Post #: 60

RE: E85 - 6/20/2008 6:26:30 AM   
Lille-bror



Posts: 29
Joined: 2/14/2008
From: Frederikshavn, DENMARK
Status: offline 		Cheers, Down.
I’ll try the same. Thank you very much

Grams, meters, liters and beers rules!!!!

_____________________________

The picture shows the best talk show host ever: Erling Bundgaard, Denmark. He made the programs GREAT in the 80'' :-)

(in reply to downunder)
       Post #: 61

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