4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (Full Version)

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STG -> 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 1:22:07 AM)

I have heard time and time again that a 4.8(4 cell) volt receiver pack will last longer than a 6.0volt (5 cell) pack(with the same cells). This makes senses to me if the servos always were drawing full power(the 6.0volt pack putting out more work), or always at no load but on. But, in the real world, when we fly it we are putting different loads on the servos and it would seem to me that it is the watts that do the work holding the servo where you want it.

My guess is that it is the holding power that significantly draws energy?. For the servo to hold a surface needing 10oz of torque the servo draws more amps than at rest? And at 90oz of torque it draws a lot more watts than at 10oz of torque? Am I wrong here?

I also think that in order for a servo to hold at 80oz of load it is the watts that are supplying the power to do this? So that would mean that the 4.8 volt battery would draw more amps to get the work done than the 6 volt battery. Is this not the way work gets done?

Is this not the way servos work? What am I missing?

Iin the real world what drives these servos is watts (volts x amps = watts) and what really pulls power from the battery is when you put a load on the servos.(fly them around aggressively -- KE puts a lot of work on rudder servo )

4.8volt battery pack x 1400mah = 6,720wh
6.0volt x 1400mah = 8,400wh

As you can see the 6 volt battery carries another cell and so another 1680wh of energy.

Now, if you placed both the batteries under the same load condition so they draw the same amount of watts (flew exactly the same flights--remember it is the watts that drives the servos) do you still think that the 4.8 volt battery with 1680wh less of energy will outlast the 6 volt battery?

Thanks




olstoney -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 1:39:21 AM)

Very good question Steve, I'll be interested in the answer.




smokingcrater -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 3:01:57 AM)

**disclaimer... I'm not an EE, this is just my stab at explaining it... I'd be curious to do a test, maybe this winter i'll try equal 4 and 5 cell packs in one of my planes with my futaba 9c servo exercise function. **


lets reduce it to the simplest measures... imagine a motor turning at a constant rpm with a constant load (ie an electric motor with a prop) although this isn't exactly what a servo is doing, it is roughly the same. if you increase the voltage on that electric motor, you are also going to increase the wattage. all things being equal, since your battery pack also has higher wattage, then it should be the same. but at higher voltages motors tend to run less efficiently and arc more, so more wasted power and your total required wattage goes up...




STG -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 3:38:34 AM)

I have a servo that needs to hold for 30 seconds at 70oz of torque. One is on a 4.8volt battery and one is on a 6.0 volt battery. There is an amp meter in line, will it draw more amps with the 6.0v(5 cell) volt battery at 70oz than with the 4.8v battery?





huey-pilot -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 3:53:02 AM)

Another way to think of it is two buckets the same size full of water, one of the buckets has 4 holes in it, the other bucket has 5 holes of the same size. The bucket with 5 holes will empty first. If you want the 5 hole bucket to last as long as the 4 hole you will need a larger bucket.




STG -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 4:07:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: huey-pilot

Another way to think of it is two buckets the same size full of water, one of the buckets has 4 holes in it, the other bucket has 5 holes of the same size. The bucket with 5 holes will empty first. If you want the 5 hole bucket to last as long as the 4 hole you will need a larger bucket.


That is true if it were the case that the servos were allowed to draw full torque all the time, but wont the servos just draw enough power to get the job done?

----------------

I finally found something on this...

http://www.rcgroups.com/links/index.php?id=4592&cat=281&t=articleprint

"Centering Test - 58 oz-in of torque

As expected, as the load increased on the servo, the deflection from the zero-load center position increased. At 4.8V, the median deflection was -10.5 degrees and at 6V, it was -6.8 degrees. The currents drawn at 4.8V and 6V were 438mA and 460 mA respectively."

Ok, here we have the same amount of torque (58oz) and the 4.8v was at 438ma and the 6.0v was at 460ma---very close(within 5%), but the 6.0 volt is accomplishing more work! As it was only allowing for 6.8 degrees of deflection and not 10.5 degrees as with the 4.8v (both these #'s sound like a lot ha?)

It makes sense to me that it can give better centering as it is putting out more watts at 58oz load. 6v x 460ma=2760 4.8 x 438ma=2102.

"With the application of 40 oz-in of torque, it is readily apparent that the servo does not reach the same position as it does under no load. At 4.8V, the servo had a median deflection from the median zero-load position of -4.7 degrees. While this may seem like a lot, it still represents only about 7.8% of the total servo travel, meaning that the control surface deflection is still a very large portion of what the pilot is asking for. At 4.8V under 40 oz-in of torque, the servo was drawing 222 mA.

It was interesting to note that at higher voltage, the performance of the servo was markedly improved. The angular deflection at 40 oz-in decreased to approximately -4.0 degrees and the servo only drew about 8% more current (239 mA). This makes a good case for using 5 cell receiver packs if you have the option and your servos are rated for it. "

As you can see again 8% more, but increased performance!




I think I am on to something here. [8|]






Red Scholefield -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 9:33:48 AM)

Why don't you simply measure the capacity taken per minute of flight time.

1. Charge/dishcarge each pack and record the capacity.
2. Charge each pack and go fly both in similar flights for a recorded period of time.
3. Immediately after flying discharge each pack and find out how much capacity is remaining by subtrcting 3 from 1.
4. Divide answer 3 by time 2 and you have mAh/minute which will give you the answer to "Does a 5 cell pack last as long as a 4 cell pack of equal capacity?

The difference will be small but never the less measurable.




JNorton -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 11:25:06 AM)

Watts is a figure of energy used. P=IXE or power equals current times voltage. The servo motor has the same DC resistance or AC impedance regardless of the voltage pack used. This being so there will be more current draw if more voltage is applied. More current is more wattage used on the same servo with a 6 volt pack as compared to a 4.8 volt pack. The wattage does not stay the same from 4.8 to 6 volt packs, but increases.

It has been the experience of most users with 6 volt packs verses 4.8 volt packs (of the same cell size) to have less flight time. I totally agree that you do as Red suggests and you actually measure the remaining capacity of your packs.

Some of this boils down to user application. Most of the guys use 6 volt packs for the higher torque rating they get from using the higher voltage pack. They need the higher torque because they fly 3D or really ring out their aircraft with stunts. Their servo's are used more hence more battery drain.

Just my 2 cents,
John




STG -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/3/2005 1:53:53 PM)

Thanks guys. I see by the test I quoted in the post above that at the 2 different torque values that the 6.0 volt pack is drawing from 5% to 8% more amps, but at the same time holding the servo closer to its correct position. 5 to 8% does not sound like a lot to me if the performance of the servo in increased. I could see 2 battery packs of the same Ma rating and voltage to be different by 5 to 8%. It looks like the real penalty that is paid by going with 5 cells is the weight of the extra cell more than shorter flight times.




IGOS R/C -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/5/2005 8:16:06 PM)


STG

I would like to add a few points. As we know from electricity law the power will be the same for a given motor because drained power is its particular characterists that resides in wire diameter and its extension (winding), rotor weight, friction etc. If the Amps go up the Volts must go down just to verify the law that is around for a long time. But what we see is a servo specification that is underestimated. The servo's motor can handle and is design for 6V with a safe margin or it will burn out but is related as to 4,8V. When we plug a 6V pack on it there is a gain in speed and torque. When we increase the Volts the speed (not flow) of electrons goes up increasing the servo's speed and that's all. But why a gain in torque ? Who's increase it ? Speed is not torque. As per electricity law the power must be the same or Volts up current down. Here is the point. The wire's motor can yet bear and suck a little bit more current for 6V. Of course the power will be bigger and obviously will be the torque. Assuming that the maximum and safe current is that one at 4,8V we only could get a increase in servo's speed.
Hope I help anyway.

IGOS R/C




JNorton -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/5/2005 9:07:48 PM)

quote:

When we increase the Volts the speed (not flow) of electrons goes up increasing the servo's speed and that's all.
When you increase the voltage the current draw also increases - so the current flow also increases as well as the energy level (what you call speed). [;)] It doesn't stay the same. All in all IGOS/RC you do a pretty go explanation considering that English is your second language.

quote:

But why a gain in torque?
When you increase the magnetic field (from increasing the voltage) the torque of the motor will increases. The field pushes the armature which rotates the servo arm.

Enough everybody is probably falling asleep!
John




IGOS R/C -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/5/2005 10:01:50 PM)

Hi JNorton !


Seemed to be confusing to explain anything without establish a fixed point or variables and surpass the language barrier. You're right. But I go a little bit ahead and say (establish) that our motor's servo is at its maximum current limit, this means that the battery pack has much more current to supply but due to its design specifications (winding wire diameter mainly) there is no way to get it. Better understand with a motor whose nominal current is 20A and the power supply can deliver just 10A. What will happen ? The wires from supply get hot may be melt. The motor will try all the time to get what it needs. Any motor need a current in excess from the supply to run properly. And it takes just the amount of current it needs. Not more not minus. That's the law.
Thanks for your comments.

IGOS R/C




JNorton -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/5/2005 10:20:53 PM)

Just agreeing.

Like I said everyones probably falling asleep. The quickest way to end a meeting with my boss is to explain in detail what I'm doing. It is a shame the dumbing down of society, at least RCers want to know how something works.

We design them, build them, paint them, fly or drive them and crash them. All in all RC people are great. Nice meeting you IGOS R/C.

John




IGOS R/C -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/6/2005 10:47:14 PM)

Hi JNorton !


Nice to meet you too !
Thanks for your attention.

IGOS R/C

____________________________

To crash or to fly, this is the question !!




cfossa -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/7/2005 1:28:04 AM)

Hi Guys,

Check out the specs for this servo:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXH296&P=0

As you can see, the tourque at 4.8 V is 54 oz-in, and at 6.0 V is is 72 oz-in. Likewise, the transit time is faster at the higher voltage.

The way to think of this is that the servo motor has some fixed resistance (impedance). When you increase the voltage, for the same impedance, you get more current. (I=V/R). You also get more power (P=I*V).

Also, drawing more current will drain the battery pack faster assuming they are the same mAh rating.

The solution is to just get higher mAh rated packs. Instead of a 4.8V 600 mAh pack use something like a 6.0 V 1000 mAh pack.

Carl




EloyM -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/10/2005 7:41:22 AM)

CFOSSA is correct - it is all explained by Ohm's Law which explains all things electric/electronic. There is a section that covers all applications, even one for car stereos which states that: "The volume of the stereo is inversely proportional to the IQ of the driver:.




robobart -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/11/2005 1:23:53 PM)

Howdy All, An important point that seems to be missing; The servo motor is NOT ever connected to the battery directly, but pulsed at a width proportional to the error (Difference between actual and desired position). USUALLY, the current to the motor is limited by the driving circuitry rather than the motor windings themselves.
The driving circuitry can position the servo more quickly with the 5 cell pack than with the 4 cell. While there is somewhat more current available from the 5 cell, the positioning should be enough faster that the total wattage used should be somewhat less, thereby the 5 cell should actually last LONGER.




JNorton -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/11/2005 2:05:30 PM)

robobart,
I would hope everyone understands that a servo motor is connected to an amplifier not directly to the battery. Connected directly to the battery the motor would simply rapidly rotate until the power was turned off, not what most people usually think of when they use the term servo.

In the interests of simplicity because the amplifier is integrated into the servo housing it is usually just said to be connected to the battery. I know its not and you know its not but no one I know of splits the cases to put in a tap to measure current at the motor we just measure the current at what is actually the input to the amplifier. [:D]

Because the switching frequency is fairly fast the amp meter simply gives an averaged reading. The averaged reading is what most people use as they do not have access to a scope. The desired result of this after all is how many "X" number of 10-15 minute flights can I safely take.

In the tests I've done the 6 volt packs do not last as long as a 4.8 volt pack if the pack is the same mAh rating. The members at my field seem to agree, which is why they normally use the next size bigger pack.

Please do like Red suggested and do your own tests. I'd be interest in the results.

John

Your




cwrr5 -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/11/2005 5:12:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EloyM

CFOSSA is correct - it is all explained by Ohm's Law which explains all things electric/electronic. There is a section that covers all applications, even one for car stereos which states that: "The volume of the stereo is inversely proportional to the IQ of the driver:.


LOL! [:D]

Looking forward to test results... I have noticed myself that 6v packs seem to discharge slightly faster than a 4.8v of the same capacity(in the same plane), but haven't used very many 5 cell packs. I usually use 4 cell packs just because they're cheaper.
My understanding is that the discharge rate is dependent on voltage... in other words, the faster you take current from a battery(voltage), the less time it takes to use the available storage(mah, ah) in the battery. Of course with a variable load on said battery, the current draw and voltage will also vary, but compared side to side, the pack with the ability to deliver charge faster will discharge before the other, regardless of what the specific load on that pack is.









robobart -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/11/2005 8:01:06 PM)

OK, that does it, a FULL set of tests is in order!!!!
I, unlike most folks WILL open a servo, and a receiver, and scope the power usage. I wonder if they are regulating internally in such a way that the 5 cell pack is being loaded by the regulator more than it should??
OK, Analysis forthcoming!!!!!!!




mglavin -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/12/2005 2:53:05 PM)

OK, I feel asleep reading as John suspected, BUT I woke up with these thoughts.

Our servos use permanent magnet dc motors.

While servo motors offer constant resistance by nature the application of our servos places them in dynamic load scenarios.

Torque is proportional to the current, more current equals more torque. Cored motored servos with like power rating to coreless motored servos will likely consume more power to perform like work. It’s a simple design consideration; coreless motors use a larger “lever” in short. The circumference of the coreless motor is essentially the “lever” while a poled motors lever is the armature or rotating mass within the magnetic field (coreless motors are inverse, the magnets are fixed and the core rotates around the magnets).

At rest, motor not rotating, current is equal to the voltage at the motor terminals Vt divided by the resistance R of the winding. As the motor starts to rotate it becomes a generator and produces a back emf (voltage) that has a polarity opposite the terminal voltage. The current then becomes Vt minus Vemf divided by R. The faster it rotates the greater the back emf and the lower the current. Therefore a motor at no load draws relatively low current.

As we load the motor it slows down, the back emf drops, the current goes up to create more torque to overcome the load. If we stall the servo, the back emf goes to zero, the current goes back to Vt divided by R and if you’re lucky you won’t burn up the servo. Digitals do not pull max current regardless of the load. As the load increases so does the need for more current.

The output circuit of the servo amp is essentially four switches in an H configuration. Two switches are closed to drive the motor one way and the other two to reverse it. This is the same for analog and digital servos. At large error signals the switches are closed continuously until the servo gets to the commanded position and then all switches turn off. A large error signal equates to large difference between the commanded position and the actual position, you’d experience this by moving the stick to an extreme. One could surmise that analog and digital servo amps driving the same motor will draw the same current.

The difference is realized with small error signals. Both Analog and digitals amps pulse the switches at small error signals in order to slow the servo down so it stops without overshooting. The so-called digitals pulse more often with shorter pulses but the net result is they are closed for a greater proportion of the time and therefore the average current is higher and there is more torque at small error signals. This accounts for increased holding power too.

The limit on how much current you can put into the motor is a function of the windings and we are getting close to the point where they will burn up if you put too much voltage on them which would in turn put too much current through them either at stall or during oscillations where it is continuously reversing itself and never builds up a back emf. So the plateau is really a cliff where it burns up if you increase the current.

In an ideal system design our servos would drive to the commanded position and it would null out and draw no current. Then it wouldn’t matter if you had 4.8 or 6 volts except it would get there faster with 6V. In the real world the servo might not get to the commanded position because as it gets close it starts pulsing, the current goes down and the torque goes down so it can’t overcome the load. If you have more voltage, 6V instead of 4.8V the current is higher, the torque is higher and you will get closer to the commanded position. Digitals will perform better because they have a higher average current under these conditions than analogs. So 6V will perform better under heavy loads but at 4.8V the servo will perform adequately.

The problem I realized with today’s servos is we don’t really know what the voltage is at the servos due to all the drops due to high current through inadequate connectors, switches and ancillary devices. Many modelers are seeing less than 4V with a 5 cell packs under extreme conditions like starting six servos in a snap roll.

Theoretically, if the efficiency doesn't change, it should take the same energy to do the same amount of work. Power is the rate at which energy is converted to work. In our cars the efficiency goes down at high power so we use more gas to move a given distance. We could get to grandmas with one horsepower if we had enough time. If we had a motor rotating with a given load, like a prop, the 6V system would turn the prop faster. So when the servo is moving it is moving faster. It is not so clear to me when we are talking about holding, no movement, against a force. No work is getting done but it is consuming energy. Let's assume we have servos with enough power to do the job. That means they will never be completely stalled during flight. However, as mentioned, they might not always get exactly to the commanded position so there will be some error. The higher voltage will produce more current, providing more torque, so it will drive closer to the commanded position. When it gets closer the pulses get shorter, and the current goes down. I believe it takes less average current to hold the same load with 6V’s. I believe many assume our servos offer a constant resistive load and divide the voltage by the same R and conclude you'd use more current with higher voltage. This may be a reasonable assumption because so much of our capacity is used with the servos essentially at null but with vibration and buffeting that make them oscillate. The higher voltage system will draw more current under these conditions and may even contribute to the oscillations if the servos are optimized for lower voltages.

A quick test @ 4.8V/6.0V validates the current is the same to hold a given force. The difference is the five cell pack will achieve a greater maximum force. It gets back to the basics I guess, more current, more torque.




JNorton -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (8/12/2005 5:59:25 PM)

Geeeeze Michael and I thought I was putting people to sleep. [:D][:D][:D]

Great summary. I think with todays very low turn on FETs and smaller PICs it's just a matter of time before the "ideal" servo is built. The question is whether people will be able to afford them. I'm flying Hitec 5625s and they are about at my limit cost wise for 120 size airplanes.

My only question is this statement
quote:

In an ideal system design our servos would drive to the commanded position and it would null out and draw no current.
If it's not drawing any current the motor won't hold against external forces. You could achive this but there would be an inherent lag between the first command position and the corrected postion because for a split instant the servo would float (no holding current) before the feedback would correct it. Nit picking I know.

The most important part of your post that I think bears repeating ...(even though it doesn't have anything to do with 4.8 verses 6 debate)
quote:

The problem I realized with today’s servos is we don’t really know what the voltage is at the servos due to all the drops due to high current through inadequate connectors, switches and ancillary devices. Many modelers are seeing less than 4V with a 5 cell packs under extreme conditions like starting six servos in a snap roll.
A big thank you for reminding people of this.

John




Juan Garcia -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (5/7/2008 7:57:07 PM)

Hi MGlavin:

Do you think this is a good way to estimate maximum current for a servo or device?

Servo specs:
Speed: 60 Deg./0.23 sec
Torque: 160 Oz.In.
Power source: 6Volts

Calculation:

(60/0.23)(3.1416/180)=4.55 Rad/sec

P=WT=(4.55 rad/sec)(160 Oz.In.)(Lb/16 Oz.)(4.4 Nt/Lb.)(2.54 Cm/In.)(M/100 Cm.)=5.08 W (Angular power equation)
P=IV, I=P/V= 5.08/6.0=0.84 Amps. (Electrical power equation)

I=0.84 Amps. (Max.)

Thank you,
Juan.





BarracudaHockey -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (5/7/2008 8:59:47 PM)

Testing conducted on this very matter showed about a 5 to 7 percent consumption increase with a 6v pack over a same capacity 4.8v pack using the servo test function of a 9C and an inline ammeter.

Flight loads would be different but they would be different by approximately the same amount for both. So like Red said, it's measurable, but its not a simple matter of applying i=e/r




Juan Garcia -> RE: 4.8v last longer than 6.0v? Really? (5/8/2008 4:58:26 PM)

Yeah, I noticed buddy.
If this is not the forum for this, apologies.

Any way the intension behind is to find a way to size a battery pack or arrangement for a specific application without having to measure or weight everything. Maybe we have to insert an empirical coefficient or factor to the original equation or law E=IR, for say something. Let the experts instruct us. If you have something drop it, please.

2.4 Ghz technology is more or less forcing us to be aware about our power requirements. [sm=what_smile.gif]




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