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What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 5:17:58 AM   
astropuppy


 

Posts: 189
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Status: offline 		I think the AMA has the cart before the horse. Everytime I read Model Aviation I can't help but think - Them first me second.
Everyday modelers should be the front line and their organization (AMA) should sit quietly in the shadows. Dave Brown is a fine gentleman and once one of the country's best flyers. But I sure wish he would quit running the AMA like a business and start running it like the non profit volunteer organization it was meant to be.

As for the national flying site I have two issues:
1) Last I heard total AMA membership was less then 200,000 persons total. Can the (flying site) expense really be justified for less then a quarter million people. Let alone the fact less then twenty percent of the membership will ever use it.

2) I think having a model museum is the greatest idea in the world. Why is it in the middle of nowhere? Only modelers are going to travel to its current location. Shouldn't it be (easily) accessible to the general public? Note: I have nothing aganist the town of Munice.

All I ever wanted from the AMA was a set of decent decals. Like in the old days the Red White and Blue ones you could actually use on an airplane.

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 26

What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 6:15:16 AM   
Bill Lee


 

Posts: 111
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Chandler, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
Bill

I'm sure it is a beautiful and wonderful place to fly, just as you say. I am just as sure that it is a finnacial albatross.

JR [/QUOTE]

Hello, Jean;

FYI, since it has apparently not been said to you in the past: the site at Muncie is ALREADY leased for crop production. I was there a week or so ago for the NATs planning meeting and the heavy farm machinery was out until well after dark harvesting (I think it was ) soybeans. Next year it will be corn.

And all of the land which is open is also a crop: hay. Many times you'll go by after the farmer has mowed and baled and can see the big round bales scattered all around.

As Bill Vargas has said, perhaps it would be wise for you to visit sometime rather than trashing the site out of ignorance.

As to the "finnacial albatross", I wonder what you base that argument on. Is it an analysis of the AMA financial statements that show the amount of money spent there, or is it a guess on your part? I TRULY don't know and would very much like your expertise made available to all of us.

Yes, six million invested in the site. Six million that is the financial reserve for the ongoing operation of AMA. And it has to be invested somewhere. Would you prefer the stock market? Or perhaps AMA should keep all its reserves in a CD at the local bank earning 1% interest? Or maybe even better in a sock under somebody's bed?

Regards,

Bill Lee

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 27

Here is a real opportunity - Bill Lee is with us - 10/22/2002 6:40:59 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Hi Bill Lee

I am well aware that PART of the land is leased to farmers. That seems like such a great idea that I asked some on the EC about it and it was agreed that if the balance was to be leased (not the HQ or museum) that it would create quite a large additional income. It was also stated that it was unlikely that it would happen.

Oh, and yes, Bill, as you know, I have the lastest audit and I have talked to Doug Holland, the EVP, just as you have.

Hey Bill, I just had a thought. Something I don't have access to is the information that you do about PADCOM. Would you share with us the reports on how much and on what you would like the AMA to spend in the next 14 months or so, and maybe the long range projections of the costs? I do not have that kind of information, but you do.

If any of you have questions about how money is invested in property and it's development, ask Bill Lee. He is on the committee that makes the recomendatons directly to the EC. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he is a decent guy and I am sure he can answer your questions, or if not, the Dist VIII VP is his close friend and he can ask him and report back. He has always been helpful in that capacatity and I am sure Bill would never duck your questions.

This is a great opportunity for RCU. Bill Lee is one of those guys you would love to spend all day with because he is so open and forthcoming and as an 'insider' he has the answers.

JR

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 28

Re: Here is a real opportunity - Bill Lee is with us - 10/22/2002 7:19:57 AM   
Bill Lee


 

Posts: 111
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Chandler, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
Hi Bill Lee

I am well aware that PART of the land is leased to farmers. That seems like such a great idea that I asked some on the EC about it and it was agreed that if the balance was to be leased (not the HQ or museum) that it would create quite a large additional income. It was also stated that it was unlikely that it would happen.

Oh, and yes, Bill, as you know, I have the lastest audit and I have talked to Doug Holland, the EVP, just as you have.

Hey Bill, I just had a thought. Something I don't have access to is the information that you do about PADCOM. Would you share with us the reports on how much and on what you would like the AMA to spend in the next 14 months or so, and maybe the long range projections of the costs? I do not have that kind of information, but you do.

If any of you have questions about how money is invested in property and it's development, ask Bill Lee. He is on the committee that makes the recomendatons directly to the EC. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he is a decent guy and I am sure he can answer your questions, or if not, the Dist VIII VP is his close friend and he can ask him and report back. He has always been helpful in that capacatity and I am sure Bill would never duck your questions.

This is a great opportunity for RCU. Bill Lee is one of those guys you would love to spend all day with because he is so open and forthcoming and as an 'insider' he has the answers.

JR [/QUOTE]

Hello, Jean;

Got quit a chuckle out of your characterization of me as an insider. Of course that has been thrashed to death elsewhere and I would have hoped you had the courage to not pick those scabs here since as you know, they simply aren't true. But then, we have a whole different group here to talk to, don't we, Jean?

As you already know, Jean, but as I will repeat for all on this forum: here is EVERYTHING I know of PADCOM's activities: ......

Did you miss that? I'll repeat: .......


Did you get the idea that there wasn't anything said? Well, SHAZAAM! You're RIGHT! And Jean, you KNEW that already, but for some reason you felt it necessary to try and "label" me once again. I wonder why!

Insider!?!? ROFLMAO!!!

But I WILL tell what I am! I am a person that trys very hard to build communication paths and working relationships with ALL of the AMA hierarchy. Not always successful, but I always try. I do that based on a history of help, a history of trust, a history of "doing for others". And it really DOES work! As some will never learn, the "in your face" approach will ALWAYS result in your being put off into the "Paranoid Malcontent" file, even if OCCASIONALLY you have something good to say!

And because of those years of trying to work WITH those in control instead of always standing back and throwing turds in the punchbowl, I often DO have insight that many don't have. And as long as I can, I will always share that information.

Too often there are those on these and other forums who deal in speculation, innuendo, half-truths, and even an occasional outright lie. All in the name of politics. It's real hard to place facts in front of folks who are bent on believing the half-truths, etc., as if the were facts. It only leads to being trashed yourself.

As to "part": what %age would you be happy leasing to the farmers? 10%? 50%? 90% Have any idea what is already leased out? I don't, but it seems to me that until we know that number, any speculation about making a bunch of money is just that: speculation. And I hope the readers of this forum would not accept that as fact until we know.

Same thing for the constant bleating about the Muncie site being a money pit. Do you know, Jean, or is it more speculation?

Oh, well...

Regards,

Bill Lee

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 29

What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 8:21:26 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Bill Lee

Gee Bill, I am feeling kinda stupid. I KNOW that you are on the Property Acquisition and Development Committee(PADCOM). The EC minutes show that PADCOM has submitted reports. It shows that the EC is going to spend money on the basis of those reports. And you know zilch? You know absolutely nothing?

You don't know about the option that the AMA holds on the airport adjoining the property at Muncie, that the owner values at something over $700,000? You don't know anything about the improvements of the facilities that are slated for Muncie and documented in the EC minutes?

Bill, this next statement was taken, admittedly out of context from a post you made on YOUR D-VIII discussion list:

"Ed, I offer to you that we have that now. According to some private
conversations I have had with Doug Holland, AMA's investements are
managed by an external financial service organization. (He told me who,
but I don't think I have the clearance to give the name.) He acts in an
oversight mode on AMA's behalf"

Now, since you were appointed by Dave Brown, you are the CL cordinator, you run the D-VIII list and you have private conversations with Doug Holland(the EVP of the AMA) and you have a personal relationship with Dr. Sandy Frank ( D-VIII VP) I think that is a fair definition of insider. However if can rely on Webster: insider- a person who is in a position of power or has access to confidential information.

Now, from your first post on this group: "FYI, since it has apparently not been said to you in the past: the site at Muncie is ALREADY leased for crop production."

From your most recent post: "As to "part": what %age would you be happy leasing to the farmers? 10%? 50%? 90% Have any idea what is already leased out? I don't" (again, admittedly out of context Bill)

You see folks, the real Bill Lee has stood up. I hope you all judge his credibility accordingly.

Jean-Pierre Rondot (JR)
AMA 732
CD/LM

P.S. Oh, Bill, do me a personal favor? You can call me Jean-Pierre (my correct name), or John (my friends do) or JR (which I use on the net). If you will do that, I won't address you as Willy.

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 30

What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 10:19:58 AM   
Bill Vargas



Posts: 1554
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Team Coldies, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Bill Lee, Welcome to RCU and Glad you could make it

BV

_____________________________

If it ain't leaking oil, then something's wrong,,, USMC, RETIRED!

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 31

What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 8:23:50 PM   
Bill Lee


 

Posts: 111
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Chandler, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
Bill Lee

Gee Bill, I am feeling kinda stupid. I KNOW that you are on the Property Acquisition and Development Committee(PADCOM). The EC minutes show that PADCOM has submitted reports. It shows that the EC is going to spend money on the basis of those reports. And you know zilch? You know absolutely nothing?[/QUOTE]

You got that right, JR! Not that I am HAPPY about that! As I said (and have repeated for you on any number of occasions), I have had ZERO involvement with PADCOM since I was "appointed" a year ago. I have had ZERO communications with the committee chair, I have had ZERO information flow in either direction, I have ZERO knowledge of what PADCOM has proposed as a committee.

Now, JR, is that sufficiently EMPHATIC for you to understand so you won't try and imply I am lying in this or any other forum?


[QUOTE]You don't know about the option that the AMA holds on the airport adjoining the property at Muncie, that the owner values at something over $700,000? You don't know anything about the improvements of the facilities that are slated for Muncie and documented in the EC minutes?[/QUOTE]

I know the same as you do, JR: what I read in the EC minutes. I simply haven't bothered to ask about it. Have you? Or is this just another opportunity to further political strategies?

BTW: what is WRONG with holding the option on that property? Oh, yes! You didn't SAY there was anything wrong, but the implication was there! Seems to me that having an option on that property is great protection for the REST of AMA's assets at the Muncie site.

[QUOTE]Bill, this next statement was taken, admittedly out of context from a post you made on YOUR D-VIII discussion list:

"Ed, I offer to you that we have that now. According to some private
conversations I have had with Doug Holland, AMA's investements are
managed by an external financial service organization. (He told me who,
but I don't think I have the clearance to give the name.) He acts in an
oversight mode on AMA's behalf"

Now, since you were appointed by Dave Brown, you are the CL cordinator, you run the D-VIII list and you have private conversations with Doug Holland(the EVP of the AMA) and you have a personal relationship with Dr. Sandy Frank ( D-VIII VP) I think that is a fair definition of insider. However if can rely on Webster: insider- a person who is in a position of power or has access to confidential information. [/QUOTE]

O.k., JR you win. I give up. I'm an insider. But I guess that makes you one, too, since you have also had some private conversations with Doug Holland, you have privately contacted many other EC members, you run the yahoo bash....er, allama group,........ Sheesh!

Just a matter of how inside, I guess. By your innuendo, I should be privy to everything that goes on within AMA. Far from the truth, but, then truth hasn't been a mainstay in previous conversations. :-(

[QUOTE]Now, from your first post on this group: "FYI, since it has apparently not been said to you in the past: the site at Muncie is ALREADY leased for crop production."

From your most recent post: "As to "part": what %age would you be happy leasing to the farmers? 10%? 50%? 90% Have any idea what is already leased out? I don't" (again, admittedly out of context Bill)[/QUOTE]

And what is this supposed to mean, JR? The site is already leased for crop production; I don't know how much or what income it brings; you continue to bleat about "...substantially decreased if the NFS were to be leased out for farming...".

I'll repeat the question, JR: how much should be leased? How much already is? How much income would be achieved? How much would it reduce our dues?

JR, you're making the accusations: is it more rhetoric? Come on, JR, inquiring minds would like an answer instead of the constant half-truths and innuendo.

[QUOTE]You see folks, the real Bill Lee has stood up. I hope you all judge his credibility accordingly. [/QUOTE]

I hope all DO judge my credibility by what I SAY and DO, not by the half-truths and innuendo that others always seem to resort to. I will promise to bring FACTS to the table. I promise I will say what I KNOW and I promise I will always indicate my OPINION as such! (I beg pardon for the occasional editorial comments when I present the facts! :-) I also promise that if I DO know anything of AMA's business which is confidential (which is damned little. zero being the appropriate value!), you will NOT hear me talk about it!

[QUOTE]Jean-Pierre Rondot (JR)
AMA 732
CD/LM

P.S. Oh, Bill, do me a personal favor? You can call me Jean-Pierre (my correct name), or John (my friends do) or JR (which I use on the net). If you will do that, I won't address you as Willy. [/QUOTE]

You got it, JR. BTW, my friends DO call me "Willy", but you can call me Bill. :-)

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 32

What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 9:30:57 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Bill Lee

Now, after I drag it out, you do know about the option on the airport. That option is a PADCOM subject. The point is simply that you do tell the truth, just not all of it. You do not tell all that you know and you withhold information to make your points, unlike any other AMA leaders that I know. Personally, I would rather be told it is none of my business than to be mislead by a partial truth. That is your style and you have posted as much elsewhere.

Let me ask directly, since we are in a new forum. Do you believe it is the business of the membership to know ALL of what is going on with the AMA, with the one exception of law suit settlements, that must be kept privledged? The truth and the whole truth?

Will you share the full and complete truth, as you know it, when you are asked any question about the AMA? Will you endevor to get the information when asked about things that you do not know?

Now, as to the option on the airport. The reason I did not express an opinion is several-fold. First, I believe Muncie is, indeed a sink-hole for money. The expenditure of that kind of money could be used for other things that I think would be of more value to the membership of the AMA. I still do not understand why the existence of the option was not made available to the AMA membership. That leads to a lot of questions. The second reason I expressed no opinion about it is that the future use of the airport has not been settled. Whether it would be operated as an airport by the AMA has not been determined, as far as I know. It is currently a losing proposition, I am told, and that might or might not make it a bigger sink-hole. Another possability is to just shut it down. Another is to develop it in such a manner that it will not cause future conflicts which might threaten the rest of the NSF. So, in summing it up, the only thing that I know for certain is that it is going to cost a lot of money to exercise that option. Any opinion would be based on assumptions of decisions that have not been made for the other scenerios, as far as I know. Oh, and Bill, this is all in the PADCOM. You really do need to get more involved or get out of that committee.

I guess the term insider just does not bother me, but, then, I am likely to share what I know, unlike some other insiders.


The point about how much is leased. Bill, you came in and in your first post, stated that the land was leased, leading people to beleive that it all was. That was the implication, the truth, but something less than the whole truth. In the second post, you disclosed what you would have us beleive is the whole truth. That is my point. When anyone reads what you say, they must read it over and over to see where the out is. Bill Clinton used the same style about sex. What he said was the truth, it was just not the truth people heard.

Now, as to my opinion on how much to lease. My understanding is that about 30% of the land is leased now. My understanding is that the current lease brings in about $600,000. I can NOT document either number. If you can get more accurate imformation, I am all ears. On the point of how much I would lease out, it would be somewhere around 90-95 percent. Everything that is not the HQ, the Museum or the roads to access them. Keep in mind that that allows the reduction of the workforce, in administration and maintenance as well. The numbers might be a good suggestion for PADCOM to determine.

What do we do with the money? I am all for creating a committee of financial experts to oversee all of our investments. It should be comprised of any EC member that feels comfortable with the duties, and some appointed with expertise in financial investments. Apparently you have some pre-conceived idea of how the money should be invested, I don't. I do not beleive that the burden of those investments should not be placed on one person.


JR

< Message edited by J_R -- Oct 22 2002 6:15PM >

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 33

Another $0.02 - 10/22/2002 9:48:54 PM   
P-51B



Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		Unfortunatley for us non-competition minded folks (you know, the ones who just enjoy the hobby) it seems that the only ones using the site are the good ol'boy "competitors".

However, I think the site and museum should be kept. Both are VERY important to the future of the hobby. As for the the 3 million dollar office building, first I heard about that.

Future priorities should be in actually BUYING flying sites in EVERY state, so that maybe us non-retired folks could think about that competition thing.

Just the ramblings of an AMA life member.

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 34

What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 10:14:10 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		P51-B

The headquarters buiding was featured on the cover of MA months ago. There has been no secret about it nor the amount of money spent on it.

I think that one of the reasons that Marc opened this discussion forum for AMA discussions was his realization that all too many AMA members do not know what the AMA is doing. If he can live with the constant bickering, there will be a LOT of information that will pass before you that you have not seen before.

This discussion group is going to drag a few into the battle. For most others, it is going to provide comic relief when they on the RCU site. Right now, the existence of this discussion group is largely unknown. As more of the politically active members of the AMA start to participate your going to be drawing more and more information.

Stay tuned

JR

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 35

What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 10:28:17 PM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Bill Lee said:

O.k., JR you win. I give up. I'm an insider. But I guess that makes you one, too, since you have also had some private conversations with Doug Holland, you have privately contacted many other EC members, you run the yahoo bash....er, allama group,........ Sheesh!


Bill,

I am not sure how productive it is to call any discussions that touch on subjects you might prefer to keep quite and involve people you disdain a bash group.

Not all the people involved in any of the various groups are friends and not all the subjects are pleasant. However, failure to address the unpleasant subjects with whomever frequently leads down the proverbial tubes, and that is not good. I would rather the AMA avoid that type of stupid move.

An observation for your consideration that might make the conversations easier to deal with. Stop using abbreviations as they simply intimidate those who don't know what they stand for. Possibly intimidation is good, but it sure gets in the way of effective communications.

I thought the purpose of this whole thread was to determine the true value of maintaining the site at Muncie. It seems that when the audit documents are carefully parsed, the actual yearly expenses of maintaining and operating the facility itself cannot be effectively broken out. That makes conversation difficult. Would it be possible for you to get those numbers, or is that something we want kept from public view?

Part of the problem is the perceived disregard for the membership that seems to be shown by unrestrained expenditures that have extremely limited value. That seems to be the view about the airport.

Another example of that same disregard for the general membership can be found in the IMS show purchase. The AMA bought that show just after the last dues increase and told us that the purpose was to avoid another dues increase. If you review the audit, it becomes clear that the IMS show NETS the AMA about $0.17 per member per year. Sorry but that is less than 10% of the DUES INCREASE.

These are the things many are concerned about and real answers seem to be extremely difficult to get. As has been noted, innuendos, misdirection, misstatement and partial truths seem to be the rule of the day. We need to get past that and down to solutions and that takes open communications rather than hidden agendas.

I used to think we were all on the same team with the same goals. Today, I wonder.

Sincerely,

Jim Branaum
AMA LM 1428

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 36

What should the AMA be? - 10/23/2002 2:14:35 AM   
Bill Lee


 

Posts: 111
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Chandler, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Well, here it is, folks. JR's real self emerging. Taking simple, factual statements and distorting and dreaming up things that weren't said.... Sad that he has to resort to such instead of actually telling the truth. For those of you who don't frequent other internet forums, this has been characterized as "Creative Politics": speculation, half-truths, innuendo and an occasional outright ... prevarication.

I ask each of you to go back and reread what I have said previously. And do the same for JR. Draw your own conclusions about who has been truthful and who has not.

[QUOTE]Now, after I drag it out, you do know about the option on the airport. That option is a PADCOM subject. The point is simply that you do tell the truth, just not all of it. You do not tell all that you know and you withhold information to make your points, unlike any other AMA leaders that I know. Personally,
I would rather be told it is none of my business than to be mislead by a partial truth. That is your style and you have posted as much elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

An example of JR's stretch to be creative. As you will find when you read what I wrote, nowhere did I say that I knew anything about an option on any property.
What I DID say was this:

"I know the same as you do, JR: what I read in the EC minutes."

Was that in the EC Minutes? I looked at all of the EC Minutes from 1998 to-dat
and found nothing. Note that there is nothing here that says I knew of any option, only that my source of information is the same as JR's: the EC minutes. But
given his later posting, it is obvious that his "insiderness" is apparently quite a bit greater than mine! Maybe he knows more than he is telling us. Creative politicing, JR?

[QUOTE]Let me ask directly, since we are in a new forum. Do you believe it is the business of the membership to know ALL of what is going on with the AMA, with the one exception of law suit settlements, that must be kept privledged? The
truth and the whole truth?[/QUOTE]

Another one of JR's creative politicing tricks: ask a question which can't be answered! This is one in the category of "Have you stopped beating your wife!".

Here's what I said, so conveniently ignored by JR:

"I will promise to bring FACTS to the table. I promise I will say what I KNOW and I promise I will always indicate my OPINION as such! (I beg pardon for the occasional editorial comments when I present the facts! :-) I also promise that if
I DO know anything of AMA's business which is confidential (which is damned little. zero being the appropriate value!), you will NOT hear me talk about it!"

Now: JR has already excluded insurance claims. But what he FAILED to say (half truths again, JR?) is that there ARE other things that should be excluded! Such things as pending litigation, or property acquisition where timing is critical, or personnel matters, or... perhaps others I cannot think of right now. All of these are deemed confidential in ANY venue such as AMA.

I will ask you the question, JR: do you believe it is proper to expose confidential information before it is appropriate?

I said and will repeat: I promise to bring FACTS to the table. I promise I will
say what I KNOW and I promise I will always indicate my OPINION as such! I also
promise that if I DO know anything of AMA's business which is confidential I will NOT speak of it beyond appropriate venues.

[QUOTE]Will you share the full and complete truth, as you know it, when you are asked any question about the AMA? Will you endevor to get the information when asked about things that you do not know?[/QUOTE]

Again, JR's creative politicing is apparent!

MY answer is a RESOUNDING YES! But if one were to ask JR the same question it would have to be NO! And I have to go NO FURTHER than his latest post (to which I am responding) where he FINALLY reveals that he knew ALL ALONG that (at least some of) the AMA site is leased to farmers for crops, and even an estimate of how much they are paying! Yet all along, he has been stringing us along with statements like "...substantially decreased if the NFS were to be leased out for farming...".



[QUOTE]Now, as to the option on the airport. ............... (A whole bunch of words deleted)[/QUOTE]

More of the CPing from JR.

As a matter of information, I went back and searched the minutes of the Executive Council for the years 1998-2002. I looked for occurrences of the word "option" or "property" or "airport" and I read the minutes in context at each point. And I found NOTHING that talked about any sort of airport option! SHAZAAM! So JR, since my access to "insider" data is apparently not as good as yours, would you PLEASE TRUTHFULLY let us know where your information on options on the airport came from? Or is it just more creative politicing?