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What should the AMA be? - 10/20/2002 11:23 PM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		Some of you hate the AMA. Some of you think the AMA is perfect.
For the rest of you that say that the AMA needs to be changed, what, precisely do you think needs to be changed?

It is my view that the AMA should return to being a service organization. To me, that means:

It should set rules for safety
It should set rules for competition
It should sanction competitions
It should charter clubs
It should be the representive to the FAI
It should supply insurance to it's members and clubs
It should maintain a headquarters and museum
It should have Model Aviation Magazine, for purely economical reasons
It should use competitive bidding when any service is involved to keep costs down.
It should maintain a professional staff to make sure that the services to its members run smoothly.
It should have, as it's main goal, a large membership that will generate political power. A membership that embraces every form of aero modeling.

It should not have a National Flying Site. I see the NFS as a sink-hole for money. The fact that only 6/10's 0f 1% of the membership used it for the NATS does not justify the costs involved in owning it and maintaining it. Perhaps it is time to rotate the NATS around the country again. If they can not support themselves, perhaps it is time to let the NATS fade into history. I do not beleive that the location of the NFS is relevant. Regardless of where it is, only a tiny fraction of the membership will use it.I believe that the yearly dues could be substantially decreased if the NFS were to be leased out for farming, while the HQ and Museum remain to take care of the business of model aviation. With a decreased dues, the membership would grow. Things like getting and maintaining flying fields, and maintaining frequencies would be much easier with a much larger membership.

JR

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 12:50 AM   
KCFlyBoy



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Status: offline 		I think you put it best J_R. It just frustrates me when the time for dues rolls around and it goes up like it has recently. Costs need to be contained and a National flying site is very low on my priority list. I am sure other areas could be cut to contain cost also.


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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 7:49 AM   
bentgear


 

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Status: offline 		J R, I would like to add one thing:

It should help obtain and keep flying sites for the members.

Money spent on maintaining Muncie could go towards this. I am not saying they should finance sites, just furnish information, procedures, and maybe a spokeman if needed, some of which is already being done.

Ed M.

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National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 9:49 AM   
Bill Vargas



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Status: offline 		If you haven t been to the National Flying Site,,, Then you need not post anything here till you have Flown There and Been to the Museum and/or Competed at a National Level there at Muncie.

I suggest you go to and Fly a National Event there at Muncie before you BAG ON IT!!!

BV

< Message edited by Bill Vargas -- Oct 21 2002 1:58AM >

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 10:08 AM   
MikeL



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Status: offline 		I had the chance to fly there this summer. Some flying buddies and I were going out to PA for a wedding. We thought about stopping at Muncie, but the thought of hauling the planes and gear out there with us wasn't so appealing. The planes don't care too much where they fly, do they? Instead of going out of our way to fly there, we stopped at the USAF Mueseum in Dayton. Now that's a mueseum!

It's pretty fair to carp about the national flying site, as it's far out of the way for 99% of us and our dues money is being spent to support it. If you like it, Bill, that's dandy. You're in the minority.

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National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 10:18 AM   
Bill Vargas



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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by MikeL
If you like it, Bill, that's dandy. You're in the minority. [/QUOTE]

Mike, thanks for your Support that enables me, A National Competitor, a Place to Compete at a National Level

BV

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 10:48 AM   
Gordon Mc



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Status: offline 		The two main things I'd like to see, would be for the AMA to remember that:

(1) they are a modelling organization.

(2) they exist to serve the membership (and not vice versa).

As an example of what I mean by (1) - I don't recall the exact details, but a few years ago there was a fair amount of fuss when it was suggested that the AMA was considering getting into the hotel business.

As an example of (2) - I had a wonderfully illuminating discussion with a lady in the membership department a few years ago. This was back before the AMA reluctantly followed the SFA's example and allowed renewals by phone. It's been a few years, so I do not recall the exact wording, but it was very close to that shown below:

me: Good morning - I would like to renew my membership please.
AMA: Okay - fill in the form and mail or fax it to us.
me: I'd like to do it by phone please.
AMA: We don't do that.
me: Hmmm... you allowed me to renew by phone last year.
AMA: You need to fill in the form and mail or fax it to us. We don't accept phone renewals.
me: Could you tell me why ?
AMA: We need your signature on the form.
me: Do you mean this form that's on page in the AMA magazine.
AMA: That's the one. Fill it in and mail or fax it to us, because we need your signature on it. That's why we don't allow renewals by phone.
me: Please have a look at the bottom of the form, under the section that's boxed off.
AMA: Okay.
me: Could you read that sentence out to me please.
AMA: It says "I understand that my signature is not required on renewal" (or wording specifically to that effect - I don't recall the exact words)
me: Yup. So - since my signature is not required for renewal, can I please renew by phone, just like I did last year ?
AMA: No - we need you to fill in the form and send it in to us.
me: Why ? As I've just shown you, your own form says that my signature is not required for a renewal.
AMA: We need all of the other information that's on the form.
me: That would be my name. address etc. It has not changed. You already have those details. So, can I now renew by phone ?
AMA: No, we need you to fill in the forms and mail or fax them in.
me: Why ?
AMA: We need your signature.
me: We just covered that. You don't need my signature, and you already have all of the other dtails on the form ... so can I please renew by phone ?
AMA: No - we need you to fill in the form and mail or fax it in to us
me: But why ?
AMA: Look - I don't know why, okay ? And frankly I don't care why. If you want to be in the AMA then just do what I tell you, otherwise you are welcome to join the SFA

A fine example of beauracracy (sp?) gone wild, and a lack of service. Fortunately things are better now (at least for renewals), but they need to strive to ensure that this kind of "the members must do whatever the AMA asks" attitude is eliminated.

On the whole, I think the AMA does more right than it does wrong. It could nevertheless be improved if HQ cares to do so.

YMMV,

Gordon

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 10:55 AM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		Bill Vargas wrote:

If you haven t been to the National Flying Site,,, Then you need not post anything here till you have Flown There and Been to the Museum and/or Competed at a National Level there at Muncie.

I suggest you go to and Fly a National Event there at Muncie before you BAG ON IT!!!

BV


Bill,

The AMA has 6 million dollars tied up in the land, buildings and improvements. That does NOT include another 3.3 million in the HQ building. To a large number of us, that seems excessive as a showplace for our best talent. How much do you feel each and every member of the AMA should put out to showcase that talent per year? These amounts do not include the administrative or maintence expenses of the National Flying Site.

Those costs are helping to drive the cost of dues up. The dues being raised is going to cost the AMA members. Less members, less political power for the AMA. What do you think the long run holds for us if that cycle continues?

A personal axe to grind? Well, no. I am a CD and could claim a free membership, but, I don't. I have signed enough new AMA members to have earned a free membership a couple of times over. I pay my dues and I pay dues for my wife, who's only interest in models is to keep the dust out from under them. No...
my interest and that of a lot of others is to make the AMA stronger. At the expense of a place to showcase talent? regretablly.... yes. I have been to the NATS, but, one held locally. A Great Event, no question aobut it. Put the NATS back on the road. If the NATS can't survive without a large outlay from each and every member to subsidize them, they need to go, starting with the National Flying Site.

170000 memebers subsidizing 1100 at the expense of the political clout of the AMA is not reasonable, at least not in my opinion.

JR

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National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 11:16 AM   
Bill Vargas



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Status: offline 		John, stop bagging on the National Flying Site until you go there and compete on a National Level or just to fly there or even to visit when you are passing thru Muncie.

Its beyond me to see anyone, who bags on something when they haven t been there, done that!

BV

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 11:32 AM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		Bill

I did the competition thing for almost 10 years, all over the southwest, before Muncie existed.... in sailplanes. I even flew FAI so I understand where you are coming from. I even started the Rose Bowl Soaring Festival, 22 years ago, where 200 competitors fly a two day event. I CD'ed it three times.

This is about AMA politics, not competition. You know that I am not against rule book events. It is my opinion that the AMA is not doing what is best for the membership. It is my opinion that some of our leaders need to be changed. I know that is not your thing.

JR

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National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 12:10 PM   
Bill Vargas



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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
Bill

This is about AMA politics, not competition.

JR [/QUOTE]

John, Then Leave MY National Flying Site Out of This Political pot stirring thing that you all are creating!!!

If you Can Do A Better Job, Then I suggest YOU run for Office

BV

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 1:35 PM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		Bill

Remember, each member has a vote. Have you voted yet? The only way things are going to change is if SOME of our leaders change. Try to sway a vote or two here. Why do you feel 170,000 should subsidize 1100? I don't think that just the fact that you want it is enough to gain many votes. Is there some reasoning you have that is not apparent to me? If you want the status quo, tell us why.

I have told you mine.

JR

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National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 1:57 PM   
Bill Vargas



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Status: offline 		John, I will answer your question,,, Only after you have been to Muncie,,, Flown at Muncie for some Sunday Flying and or Competed at The National Flying Site as a National Competitor.

Until such time, Your comments about the National Flying Site have no merit in my Book.

BV

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 2:12 PM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		Bill

I am sorry you feel that way. That is exactly the attitude that will cause the demise of the National Flying Site. No one can defend it except as a competitor, where it can't be defended economically, or on emotion.

JR

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National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 2:58 PM   
Bill Vargas



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Status: offline 		Sorry John, But you speak of nothing that has Experience to back it up with. You haven t even been to the National Flying Site to fly have you? How can you justify making comments on The National Flying Site when you haven t been there? Go there John and have a look see for yourself, Only then will you see how a portion of your membership dues are put to work. BUT You have to go there to see it to understand.

Tell me something here John, Where would you suggest to all for a National Event to be held at that has enough room for all the Control line events? Scale events? Pattern? Scale acrobatics? Free Flight? (Outdoor and Indoor) Helicopter? Sailplane? Electric? and of course, The Event for which I compete in,,, Pylon? and don t forget all them other Programs that AMA has working too.

So, if your so worried about AMA and your 58 bucks,,, Why did you join AMA? If your worried about your 58 bucks, then your in the wrong hobby.


BV

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 3:15 PM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		Bill

Your letting your emotions show. Go back and re-read my posts.

For whatever it's worth, Frank Zaic bought me my first AMA membership. If that does not give you a clue why am a member, you won't ever understand.

JR

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National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 3:26 PM   
Bill Vargas



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Status: offline 		What I don t understand John,,, Is how how someone that has never been to the National Flying Site write/make comments like you have about it.

I guess I should have known better,,,

BV

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 3:36 PM   
J_R


 

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I'm sure it is a beautiful and wonderful place to fly, just as you say. I am just as sure that it is a finnacial albatross.

JR

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What should the AMA be? - 10/21/2002 3:51 PM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		'Nite Bill

See you at the field

Oh, for anyone that has not figured it out, Bill and I belong to the same club.

JR

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hello - 10/21/2002 5:25 PM   
dennis1943


 

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Status: offline 		sounds to me like you two need to kiss and make up, we do our fighting at the field or in the back yard over a cold one,

my .02$ worth goodmorning Bill,

dennis1943

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Re: National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 9:20 PM   
Gordon Mc



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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Vargas
Sorry John, But you speak of nothing that has Experience to back it up with. You haven t even been to the National Flying Site to fly have you? How can you justify making comments on The National Flying Site when you haven t been there? [/QUOTE]

Sorry Bill, but I gotta disagree on this one.

That's like saying that taxpayers should have absolutely no say in how the government spends our money unless we have actual experience in each of the areas the money is to be spent in... oh - you haven't actually been in outer space ? - well them the government can spend as much money in space exploration as they want, and you can't disagree coz you're not an astronaut; you haven't ever been pregnant ? ... well, then I hope you would not disagree if the government chose to raise taxes to give free healthcare to all pregnant women the world over; etc.

As far as I'm concerned, the simple fact that we send our money to the AMA means that we're entitled to have opinions on how it's spent.

YMMV,
Gordon

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I agree with J_R - 10/21/2002 11:18 PM   
mr_matt



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Status: online 		Your points are not lost on me J_R!!

I do not undertand the other gentleman's strident argument that you have to have visted the field to be able to comment? Not very compelling point IMHO.

As for the AMA, I agree that efforts need to be made to DRAMATICALLY INCREASE the membership. That is where we will get political power, and I am SURE that in a few years we will need that power. The membership ranks are dwindling while the sport is growing in leaps esp. Park Fliers.

They should have an introductory offer/rate (real cheap like 5 bucks) for Park Fliers, included in the box with the model, in addition to a statement ABOUT FREQUENCY CONTROL!

They need to spend some of that dues money on marketing to the Park Flers. If this continues, the dues are going to go up, the mebership will fall and the Park Fliers will not join, and when and if they progress in RC they will they have learned they do not need the AMA for anything? (in addition to shooting a bunch of planes down along the way, another story)

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The National Flying Site - 10/21/2002 11:50 PM   
Bill Vargas



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Status: offline 		well,,, Like the other person here that said," I'm the minority"

I apologized for Defending The National Flying Site and for my stand on this topic. ,,,,We all have our opinions,,, To me, 58 bucks is nothing nor do I care how it is spent. Even if it were to cost me a 100 bucks for AMA to compete at The National Contest at The National Flying Site, I would gladly do so

BV

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Re: I agree with J_R - 10/22/2002 12:03 AM   
MikeL



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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mr_matt
They should have an introductory offer/rate (real cheap like 5 bucks) for Park Fliers, included in the box with the model, in addition to a statement ABOUT FREQUENCY CONTROL![/QUOTE]

I asked Bill Oberdieck about this, and he responded that he feels it's the club/flying site's job to be proactive in educating park flyers that they see about frequency control. Brilliant response, eh?

Somehow I'm supposed to know that there's a silent electric park flyer flitting around below the treeline somewhere near the county park flying site I use. Then I'm supposed to approach the person flying it, and educate them about frequency control. Sure, they probably won't know what frequency or band they're on, but that's my problem. If I find out they're on the same channel as myself, I'm supposed to tell them they can't fly? Or that they need to join the AMA so they can fly at the county site along with me? Somehow I don't imagine that discussion going my way.

The AMA talks big about working with the industry, but what have they done? A warning in each park flyer box? Great, I'm sure that'll be foremost in peoples' minds. They need to get park flyers on the 27mhz band IMO.

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What should the AMA be? - 10/22/2002 1:19 AM   
DESERT RATT



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Status: offline 		BILL VARGAS,

Most of this is to your personal benifit!!

What does the NATIONAL FLYING SITE, have to to with more than MAYBE 1/10th of the national flyers paying their money for "you" to compete at MUNCIE!!

I will NEVER fly at muncie, I don't know one flyer whom i've met that looks forward to going to MUNCIE to fly at a site that "I" and "THEM" PAY to maintain, and enable YOU to enjoy. OK, BILL, What about the flying field that my local flyers need? We fly off of the DESERT, a dry lake bed. We don't have staging areas,covered areas,picnic tables,bathrooms,clubhouse, pretty landscaping,Grass or pavement runway, ETC.ETC. BUT!! We pay for yours. I sure the hell don't need to travel thousands of miles as you've posted to see that I still don't need YOUR flying site, and my money doesn't need to pay for the construction,maintainance, and advertising.
I'm not happy about what the A.M.A. does for me and my dues, I'm like almost all of the rest of the people here and those that don't know about RCU, I only pay the dues in order to maintain the insurance. If I remember we're not the first to feel in such a manner, What about the now defunct,SPORT FLYERS OF AMERICA? If someone ever gets another going such as S.P.A. I will join.
And BILL, We all now know that you compete on the NATIONAL level. CONGRATULATIONS, now can we get back to the main topic of what people think of the AMA and MUNCIE?

But you've brought up another question, Who is going to pick up the T.O.C. when BILL BENNETT dies? it should be your great A.M.A.. If the T.O.C. isn't the top flyers of the world, (by the way have you ever been invited there?) Then where are they! But one man all by himself supported, the TOC. Financially, HIS FIELD, HIS bathrooms,HIS coverage,HIS runway, without outside financial representation. If the AMA would do what they were initially established to do instead of how they can better themselves on THEIR and YOUR local level, There wouldn't be a question as to what organization is going to take over the T.O.C. The AMA can spend OUR money in ways that the most of us members will never see or utilize, and they can and will raise our rates for the yearly cost. WITHOUT contacting we members for a VOTE. But that's ok with you. Because you COMPETE AT MUNCIE. CONGRATULATIONS BILL!! NOW what about the rest of us???? Personally I care more for them than ONE MEMBER WHOM COMPETES at MUNCIE>>>>>

GIVE YOURSELF A BIG SLAP ON THE BACK BILL, AS YOU'RE TOO FAR FOR ME TO DO IT.. Oh DAMNED, you've already did that haven't you!


RON WOODGEARD

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