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Would you sue? - 8/25/2005 1:48:43 PM   
Sharpy01



Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Moral/ethical questions for you'all:

If you got hit in the head by a plane and suffered serious injuries , but in the end, no permanent damage............. would you sue MAAC?

Where is the moral/ethical line on this, knowing that your suit may sink the association? If the accident is the result of a true "accident", how much of the responsibility falls on you for not paying attention in any situation? Where does the line between "providing for your family in time of need" and "taking a grab for a cash cow get drawn"?

Hypothetical questions. Just interested to know what others think?
       Post #: 1

RE: Would you sue? - 8/25/2005 1:51:23 PM   
MajorTomski



Posts: 1383
Joined: 5/1/2003
From: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
Status: online 		Don't know about the law up in the Great White North but down here you'd have a little trouble linking the actions of the guy holding the transmiiter to the AMA. Other than being a memeber of a sporting organization, who's charter is to represent the country in international modeling events, how could you tag them for the bill?

(in reply to Sharpy01)
       Post #: 2

RE: Would you sue? - 8/25/2005 3:37:12 PM   
bbbair


 

Posts: 815
Joined: 1/7/2003
From: Belleville, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		A Good Question!

In the event of a 'True Accident' where there was no criminal intent, and the pilot had excercised all 'Due Diligence' (I've seen way too many lawyer shows), personally I would not sue MAAC.

In my world; a legal action is initiated when someone has acted irresponsibly or in complete disregard for safety and then causes an accident or injury. At that time Legal action should be brought about against the individual.

MAAC would only be brought into the conversation if they knew that this person acted recklessly and did nothing about it.

Common sense should prevail, but if that happened regularly - we would have no need for lawyers.

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       Post #: 3

RE: Would you sue? - 8/25/2005 3:58:10 PM   
Sharpy01



Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bbbair

Common sense should prevail, but if that happened regularly - we would have no need for lawyers.


....well Bruce, you likely know what my response is to that statent. It's the lawyers who have created our collective lack of common sense.

I agree with your general take on the main issue Bruce, but unfortunately, when a lawyer get's a sniff of an organization with potential deep pockets (insurance), fairness, common-sense become non-issues. You can almost hear the conversation ........ "we'll sue for 3 mil and their insurance company will settle out of court for around "XXX" to avoid the court costs. It seems that there is a quick departure from the issue of "right" or "wrong" and more of an emphasis on attrition and "how much can I get fast?"

Perhaps, a secondary question would be:

"What's the difference if you get hit in the head by an errant plane because you weren't paying attention or lopping of a couple of fingers trying to adjust the needle valuve through the prop?"

Knowing you are at a place where model airplanes fly and the potential danger is about as obvious as knowing that sticking your hand in a turning propeller is dangerours. Should you then sue the association for neglecting to warn you about these obvious dangers?

...........Personally, I could use a few thousand bucks to pay some bills.......and I don't really need my right ring finger....hmmmmm?





< Message edited by Sharpy01 -- 8/25/2005 4:06:16 PM >

(in reply to bbbair)
       Post #: 4

RE: Would you sue? - 8/25/2005 4:04:14 PM   
kenair


 

Posts: 492
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: winnipeg, MB, CANADA
Status: offline 		It may be out of your hands as an individual, if you got hit in the head with a flying model airplane then there has to be a cause out of the ordinary, such as mechanical failure or negligence on the pilot.

your employer may sue for lost wages,
your insurance may sue for lost wages.
your health provider may sue for costs.

MAAC is deeper than what they believe they are - for instance

1) has maac followed up and studies accidents with a cause and prevention stratgedy.
2) does MAAC have an active safety program
3) has MAAC set safety as their main priority
4) has MAAC studied new safety rules before implementing them to ensure the new rules do not cause more accidents that the new rules prevent.

A sharp lawyer will make mince meat out of MAAC ( and the clubs) on the safey issue if the need arises, just give the lawyer a 3D hovering video with the holder or pilot reaching out to touch the rudder.

IMHO - ken



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(in reply to bbbair)
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RE: Would you sue? - 8/25/2005 6:08:09 PM   
britbrat


 

Posts: 3299
Joined: 6/15/2004
From: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Would I sue MAAC? No --- unless their various rules & requirements were contributory to the accident, or to the severity of the accident.

(in reply to kenair)
       Post #: 6

RE: Would you sue? - 8/25/2005 8:26:36 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Good answer britbrat, definitely frames the discussion.

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       Post #: 7

RE: Would you sue? - 8/28/2005 8:37:57 PM   
Randy Brown



Posts: 150
Joined: 12/4/2002
From: O'Canada, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Marc Sharp as your a OPP Officer and a investicatoin going on by your Pears of the London OPP what is your purpose of pulling off this stunt and posting this?? I sure like to no

Randy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

Moral/ethical questions for you'all:

If you got hit in the head by a plane and suffered serious injuries , but in the end, no permanent damage............. would you sue MAAC?

Where is the moral/ethical line on this, knowing that your suit may sink the association? If the accident is the result of a true "accident", how much of the responsibility falls on you for not paying attention in any situation? Where does the line between "providing for your family in time of need" and "taking a grab for a cash cow get drawn"?

Hypothetical questions. Just interested to know what others think?



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Team Airtronics
MAAC 45752L

(in reply to Sharpy01)
       Post #: 8

RE: Would you sue? - 8/29/2005 12:27:31 PM   
Sharpy01



Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Brown

Marc Sharp as your a OPP Officer and a investicatoin going on by your Pears of the London OPP what is your purpose of pulling off this stunt and posting this?? I sure like to no

Randy



Randy.

What the he!! are you talking about?

Having an ethical discussion about a hypothetical situation has nothing to do with what I do for a living, any more than it has to do with you being in a wheelchair. Feel free to participate and offer an opinion, but save the stupid/politically correct nonsense for elsewhere. Besides, what does fruit have to do with ethics? I know a couple of bananas in London, but no "Pears"?

< Message edited by Sharpy01 -- 8/29/2005 1:27:26 PM >

(in reply to Randy Brown)
       Post #: 9

RE: Would you sue? - 8/29/2005 8:08:28 PM   
Randy Brown



Posts: 150
Joined: 12/4/2002
From: O'Canada, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		No Marc you tell me whats your purpose to have posted this

Tell you your so far off base bud on your statement period

Randy


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Randy Brown
Team Airtronics
MAAC 45752L

(in reply to Sharpy01)
       Post #: 10

RE: Would you sue? - 8/29/2005 8:48:27 PM   
britbrat


 

Posts: 3299
Joined: 6/15/2004
From: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		What is going on here?? The question is relevant & rational.

Did I miss something?

(in reply to Randy Brown)
       Post #: 11

RE: Would you sue? - 8/29/2005 9:11:11 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		I think the timing is a little suspect, and way too close to home & hearth for some of us.... can we let this one be for now?

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       Post #: 12

RE: Would you sue? - 8/29/2005 10:57:35 PM   
jhelps


 

Posts: 163
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Headingley, MB, CANADA
Status: offline 		Jim

You know me, I'm pretty moderate and try and be sensitive however I fail to see why this is a touchy subject? If you are referring to the accient that happened last year, it is well over a year ago so I'm not certain how the timing is suspect ... if there is a new one we are not aware of then I apologize. If Randy is referring to the year ago accident then I would suggest any OPP investigation is long completed.

I cannot speak for Marc however I think this posting was in response to something raised on one of the others re: rising insurance rates and we better be careful cause if we have another accidnt like the last one our rates will go up.

My problem with this is that here is what we recieve:

"Rates are going up, we must enact rules because we don't want another accident like the last one so be careful" and "one more like the last one and we will not be able to get insurance". SO the logical question is "what happened last time?" "Can't tell you but be careful cause if we have another like the last one we will ..."

Do you see the frustration?

FYI many years ago most MAAC insurance claims were for model to model damage, something the board stopped paying. It may indeed be appropriate to ask whether we examine an injury waiver if you agree to participate in model aviation (I don't think so , but I think the question is valid ... try getting life insurance if you skydive!!!)


JH


(in reply to Jim_McIntyre)
       Post #: 13

RE: Would you sue? - 8/30/2005 3:31:35 AM   
kenair


 

Posts: 492
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: winnipeg, MB, CANADA
Status: offline 		the problem with r/c aircraft is that a 10 cent battery connector can bring the plane down (aka unguided air to surface object) yet so many rcers fly with the notion, "it can't happen to me"

a few more of these, we will not have to worry about suing or insurance, next time you want to fly at an airport or real airshow

read this news from Aero News http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=7851ae57-c62c-412f-ad3e-f764a707889c&
.
quote:




News | Columns | Events | Community | Classifieds | Privacy | My Stuff
News

Today's Top News



Aero-Views: RC Plane Falls Close To Spectators at SMX Air Show!'
Mon, 29 Aug '05

Almost Hits Corsair!
by ANN Associate Editor Rob Finfrock
C'Mon, Guys...

When your day begins with watching an absolutely gorgeous red-and-yellow Decathlon as its pilot practices touch-and-goes on a calm, coolish (well, for Dallas -- 75 degree) morning, you know there are still at least a few things right with the world. Flying funk? What flying funk?

And then you read the news.

This morning, still buzzed from the spectacle of short approaches and perfect three-point landings, I came across an item written by Mark Baylis, staff writer for the Santa Maria (CA) Times. The headline: "Plane crash almost strikes spectators."

Like it or not, plane crashes are news -- especially this month. (Never mind what Green Day says, wake me up when August ends.) Anyway, I clicked on the link, hoping to read of tragedy averted, due to the last-minute heroics of a pilot who is still in one piece.

"The Thunder Over the Valley air show had a scary start Saturday when a radio-controlled plane lost its radio frequency, veered into the spectator area and crashed, nearly striking bystanders."

Um, okay. Further reading reveals that the plane in question wasn't a real -- full-sized, pilot-sits-in-it -- airplane, but rather a radio-controlled Piper Cub that looks from the photograph to have been about 1/10 scale.

I read on. According to the article, the accident plane belonged to a member of the Tri-Valley R/C Modelers club, an organization that has had a booth at the air show for 10 years. This was the first year the club performed -- and sadly, will likely be the last.

"Larry Schlagel, president of the Santa Maria-based RC club and pilot of the errant plane, said the plane lost its radio frequency, causing the free fall. The plane crashed in the spectator area - missing several heads by less than six feet - and crashed beside a vintage plane that was on display."

Of course this is a tragedy -- at least for the unfortunate Schlagel, who no doubt watched helplessly from the ground as the aircraft he was flying, and probably built himself, dropped from the sky and crashed into several pieces against the sun-baked concrete tarmac of the Santa Maria (SMX) airport.

I also sympathize with those spectators, some of whom where likely sufficiently scared into never attending an air show ever again. Seeing an aircraft falling from the sky would certainly be a frightening event, radio-controlled or not -- even more so if said airplane is heading right towards you.

(In fact, I'd be running with all my might, just as I did the time I saw an airplane directly overhead, in a spin, when I was twelve. Scary -- and while that airplane recovered in plenty of time and flew out of the spin well above 1500 ft AGL, you couldn't convince me at the time that I hadn't just witnessed a near cataclysmic event. I even still wonder, a little.)

Back to the article. "The accident ended the RC portion of the event Saturday and organizers canceled the RC slot schedule for [Sunday] as a safety precaution until they could figure out what happened."

Certainly understandable. In fact, so far I was mentally giving kudos to Baylis for his fairly restrained tone... until it all went wrong.

And not because of Baylis.

"Safety is number one," [air show director Mike] Geddry said. "That thing is flying fast as a bullet and someone is going to get hurt."

There were several things wrong with this, and I'm a guy who appreciates some well-thrown hyperbole. "Someone is going to get hurt," sounds too muc