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OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/27/2005 6:58:46 AM   
Conrod


 

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From: Palmerston North, NEW ZEALAND
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Hi
I have two Turbo mufflers for OS 160, one is leaking at the centre joint, but this can be easily fixed, by dissassembling and reapplying gasket compound. I decided to do both mufflers and this leads me to my question...1 muffler has a full diameter hole in the seperating disc and a shorter spiral in the first half of the muffler housing. The 2nd muffler has a flat sided hole in the seperating disc and a longer spiral. Why was this done and which one is the later version as I am not sure which was purchased first?
Geoff
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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/29/2005 9:46:41 PM   
bob27s



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Hi Geoff,

Thanks for writing.

Sorry to hear of the leak. It is likely on the older muffler.

What you decribed sounds like a "block 1" version and a current version. There were some changes made after the first production batch.

The current version has the "not-round hole". This is the later model one. The longer spiral provides more torque. Change was made a few years ago.

The longer spiral gives more torque, runs quieter, and allows you to turn larger props.

I hope this is helpful

Bob


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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/29/2005 9:58:49 PM   
Conrod


 

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From: Palmerston North, NEW ZEALAND
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Thank's Bob
Regards Geoff

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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/30/2005 3:06:35 AM   
Bat Fastard


 

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From: Manakin-Sabot, VA, USA
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Hi Bob,

I too have an O.S. 160 with the JETT incowl muffler and have experienced very hot engine temps. However I was running an APC 17-8 prop and am wondering if it was turning too fast or if it was out of its intended rpm range? I have since changed to a bisson pitts muffler with a perry pump (I have 3 other setups like this one with mejzlik 18-8 props) and all is well. Then I started testing different props and I believe the engine is happiest with a zinger 20-6 @ 7200 rpm, this is why I question the overheating problems @ over 9500. The plane is a cap 232 form rc superstore run without cowl under all testing.

The second part of of this post concerns one of the older 120's I bought from Dub about 2 years ago(with an in cowl muffler). I am just getting around to installing it into a 68" yak @ 8.5 pounds and it too runs hotter than I would like to see. Same situation again, run without cowl and prop is an APC 14-6 run about 1000 rpm's off peak and it will not run more than 2 min. at full throttle like this. The engine is not 4-cycling but just on the edge with lots of fuel and oil exiting the exhaust. Fuel for both engines is Wildcat 10% with 80-20 blended oil (synth. to castor). Any info would be accepted. Thank you Jamie


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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/30/2005 4:30:34 AM   
bob27s



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Hi Jamie

Thanks for writing.

Quick question, then on to your questions a bit.

When did you purchase the OS160 muffler? And you noted the Jett 120 was a couple of years old so we know that.

There have been reports to us of a few folks having no success with the OS160 and the turbo. Same thing you noted, the engine got hot. On the other hand, my own 160 runs great, and there are a number of pilots flying the combo who love it. Does not seem to be any rhyme or reason why one person's works, and why someone elses does not.

Your questions...

First, prop selection. My OS160 on the turbo produces a lot of torque. I prefer 18x6 18x8 and 20x6 props. The 17x8 should be ok too. But Ive found the bigger props worked better.

The Jett 120 on a turbojett you would want to run with a 15x8, 16x6 or 16x8 (or similar) around 10K rpm, or lighter prop up to about 12K rpm max. It can go higher, but the turbo is tuned for the 9K to 12K band. Prop in that range.

Overheating.

First, be sure that the engines are broken in and run for a while on a test stand. This gives you a 'baseline' to isolate any problems, and become familiar with the engines. If they act up and get hot on the test stand, there is a problem to look at immediately. If they run fine on the test stand, and only get hot installed in the airframe... then that is another set of issues.

On the Jett, be sure to follow the break-in instructions. You do not want the engine run too rich, especially during initial break-in.

Second, make sure there are no air bubbles in the fuel line - either to the needle of after the needle. Usually on the 160 the pump helps with this a bit. Ensure the fuel tanks are properly padded - not touching structure.

Third - suggestion - remove the needle valve assembly from the engine. Mount it on the airframe.

Beyond that, you noted you were running with no cowl. So it is hard to factor that in at the moment. However, I have seen in the past on aerobatic ships such as the Extra that it is important to close off the un-used cowl inlet opposite of the engine cylinder. This forces all cooling air entering the cowl to pass over the engine and muffler as it exits below. If the other side is open, the air takes the 'easy' way in and out, and you get a stagnation point at the engine cylinder, and it does get hot.

Dub has his Aeroworks Edge 540 flying weekly with the BSE-120L and turbo installed - and it runs beautifully. My own BSE-100 turbo combination ran great in the same airframe. I flew 15x8 apc. I will ask what prop Dub and Mike are running.

One thing I personally noted was that the OS160 runs great on 5% nitro. Didnt seem to like 10% or 15%... had some weird issues. Maybe the fuel change will help ??

If any of this is helpful, let me know. Again, put the engine on the bench, get them setup and running properly. If they do not run right there, let me know. If they do, lets try again in the airframe, and we can isolate a problem.

See if any of what I have there makes a difference.

Bob


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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/30/2005 5:21:11 AM   
Bat Fastard


 

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Hey Bob,

Thanks for your swift reply, the O.S. is about one year old with about half a gallon of fuel run thru it before the muffler was replaced. Both engines run very well on the ground from startup till they get warm or too hot. The needles work perfectly and are very responsive (especially the jet which has excellent fuel draw) it just seems that I cant run them rich enough to prevent them from overheating. When I say overheating I dont mean to the point where either of the engines stop running, I just do the spit test frequently to test the temps. When it starts to bubble rapidly that is when I stop. The other 160's I have run quite a bit cooler according to "the spit test".

I just recieved a bisson muffler for the 120 and will try it soon, do you think I need a pump for it as well? If this doesnt work would you consider taking a look at both engines if I shipped them to you? BTW the fuel you mentioned (5%) sounds correct from what other people are saying problem is it is difficult to obtain in my area without special ordering, and the other 160's run well with this fuel (running slightly rich). Thank you very much for your time.
Jamie
Oh yeah I looked back and the jett 120 is also around one year old it's not the bse one, Not 2 years old.


< Message edited by Jamie Turner -- 8/30/2005 5:52:42 AM >


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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/30/2005 5:41:07 AM   
Bat Fastard


 

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Sorry, the first post didn't address all of your points:
As for the test stand, I dont own one (is it really that important that I should buy one? that is my reason for running with no cowl)

I have followed Jetts break in instructions to a tee (however only in short bursts due to the heat)

Air bubbles are not a problem.

I dont want to sound like a whiner but does the needle valve mounting make a difference? (just trying to gain some knowledge)

And as I stated before I can get them tuned perfectly on the plane and I mean anywhere I want them (both carbs love the muffler as for backpressure and needle valve setting just seems to have too much backpressure or tuned for a different rpm.

I have done a little bit of research into tuned pipes (not mufflers) and it seems one tunes his exhaust for a certain rpm. It seems that if you dont reach or exceeds that rpm then all of the attempts to tune properly are lost. This is why I ask about the rpm range. The jett is so precise in regards to the needle that I can tune for any rpm and it seems to break into 4-cycling around 1200 rpms off peak that is why I tried running 1000 off peak. Thanks, Jamie


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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/30/2005 4:29:35 PM   
bob27s



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Hi Jamie...

Looks like you have covered all the bases.

You are correct about the tuning points for the tuned exhaust system. The Turbo-Jett mufflers are fairly broad-band, but still have a desired rpm target. For the 120 you want to hit about 10K - 11K rpm, and the big 160 size works best around 8000 - 9000 rpm, although I have run as much as a 20x8 peaking up around 7500 rpm - you gain more torque than RPM with the 160 size turbo.

The test stand is a critical piece of any modelers tools. It quite simply eliminates all variables, and provides a consistant reference point. It is easier to see 100% of the fuel system, and it is much easier to make adjustment. Airflow and cooling are rarely an issue. In general a good test stand is much more rigid than an airframe installation which minimizes vibration modes at different rpms.

As for mixture, setting the 120 down 500-600 off peak is pleanty. Any more than that, and the engine will be too rich. Being a true ABC engine, it has to be broken in 'hot' (as you did per instructions) and the engine will tend to operate best with an optimal mixture. We typically set the Q-500 engines 600-800 down, and some of the more radically tuned full-pipe FIRE-50 engines end up backed off 1000 rpm for launch. But that far is not needed for the SJ-120.

As far as a pump on the SJ-120, I generally do not recommend it.

Mounting the remote needle on the airframe tends to do two things 1) prevents crankcase heat transfer into the needle (can be a problem) 2) isolates the needle from engine vibrations. Both help prevent fuel decavitation and micro-bubbles in the fuel that will simply drive you nuts. Although, it sounds like that was not an issue in your case.

Sending engines in for check is an option. Let me look into that.

Bob

< Message edited by bob27s -- 8/31/2005 2:55:19 PM >



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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/30/2005 11:26:18 PM   
Bat Fastard


 

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From: Manakin-Sabot, VA, USA
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Thanks bob for all of your comments. I will buy an engine test stand soon and try that. Is there a proper way to check engine temps (the one I used for my car engines seems inaccurate or hard to get the same readings)?I think it is a raytech. I will also try the needle valve trick. When I get around to doing this I will post the results here. Again thanks for your time. Jamie

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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 8/31/2005 2:53:41 PM   
bob27s



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Hi Jamie,

Good deal. Let me know how things work out.

I've never checked an engine temp on an aircraft. Never needed to. RPM, mixture and engine performance/sound is all I've ever used.

On the test bench (development stuff) , I have checked exhaust gas temperature, head temperature, carb temp and bearing temperatures. But that was on a dedicated instrumented engine loaded with thermocouples and RTDs.

Some info that might be a helpful reference - I thought I might provide the following
AT-6 racing aircraft - Jett SJ-120 and turbo
http://www.jettengineering.com/hall/at6com.html
Full description and info available at that link

OS 160 installation. Pump, turbo, 18x8 prop, FAI fuel (no nitro), Giles 202

"I wish to pass on some great information concerning your Turbo Jett mufflers. I have a Giles 202 with an OS 160 installed with a stock O.S. muffler along with a Perry fuel pump and regulator. The engine delivered beautiful perform along with great reliability. The O.S. 160 could easily handle an APC 18 x 8W at 8800 RPM with FIA fuel ..." " ... Not only did the muffler meet the noise requirement but the engine perform was greatly enhanced. The OS 160 can now handle the APC 18 x 8W at 9300 to 9450 using FIA fuel! All other muffler systems that I have installed on other aircraft, over my 44 years of RC flying, did not meet noise standards or robbed the engine of power due to back pressure." Ron Smith, CA.


You will notice the extra bracket Ron added to the muffler. Earlier version of the 160 turbo had a tendencey to strip out the manifold attach bolts. The bracket stopped that. Current version of the Turbo was slightly re-designed to address the header issue.

Bob


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Bob Brassell
Jett Engineering - Engine Mfg Support Forum Host

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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 9/2/2005 4:51:25 PM   
STG



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Great info! I just had 1 question regarding impacted fuel usage with the Turb Jet muffler. If I was to fly with the Slimline muffler and then change to the Turbo jet using the same power output, would I see a deterioration in mileage? I do understand that fuel usage would go up considerably at full throttle as the power is way up and fuel usage will climb as well, but at the lower settings will there be an increase in fuel usage?

Thanks



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RE: OS 160 Turbo Muffler - 9/2/2005 4:58:26 PM   
bob27s



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From: Cleveland, OH, USA
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Good question.

Stands to reason, you develop more power by burning more fuel (converting fuel/energy to work)

So in part, if you are running higher power settings, you may burn more fuel

However, the turbo-jett tends to utilize your fuel charge more efficiently (like a full length tuned pipe). So there is some recovery there.

The advantage the turbo-jett has is that it helps with toruqe more than rpm. You can turn more prop at the same rpm. Keeps it quiet, and fuel usage is all that much more.

Bob


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Bob Brassell
Jett Engineering - Engine Mfg Support Forum Host

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