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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 3:58 AM   
joncammarata


 

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Hello all, I’m new to forum. However, I've read a ton of posts before becoming a member and there seems to be a constant request for test results. This is what I've got so far on My Saito 100.
A little history first,  I started as a glow guy then left the hobby for several years before getting back into it because the advances in battery and brushless motors intrigued me. Then I heard that sweet sound of a four stroke glow motor.  I'm never going back to electric or 2 stroke. Ok, Here are my results:

After Very good break in:
First set up (Stock muffler and 15%n,17%O Fuel)
MAS sport prop 14x8
temp. 85
alt. 650ft
Absolute peak:  10450 RPM
Richened to: 10200 RPM
Idle: 1900 RPM
static thrust: Did not measure
throttle response: idle to full- about 1 second

Second set up (Turbo Header muffler, EXRA550 onboard glow driver set to come on below 25% throttle and Fuel 30%N,23%O)
Motor inverted.
MAS sport prop 15x6
temp. 75
alt. 650ft
Absolute peak:  10700 RPM
Richened to: 10450 RPM
Idle: 1600 RPM
static thrust: 15pounds
throttle response: idle to full- about less than a half second ( the response in the mid ranges from 25%-75% is absolutely amazing)


NOTE 1: In both cases i ran the props before and after balancing and in both cases I had close to a 150 rpm increase.
NOTE 2: The lower idle in the second setup is mostly due to the onboard glow driver but the 30% fuel also helps.
NOTE 3: I haven’t done any tests yet on the biggest cause of increase in RPM on the top but I bet its half fuel and half after market muffler.
NOTE 4: This engine runs very cool when using 30%N Fuel
LAST NOTE: I have learned so much from so many in this forum.  Thanks for sharing.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 4:04 AM   
orthobird


 

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Status: offline 		i purchased a turbo header prop for my saito fa 125, glow, and it stripped the threads on the crankcase. 

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 4:16 AM   
RC-Bearings



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

Just curious, I haven't heard of anyone ordering from RC Bearings lately. Aren't these FA 80 prices considerably cheaper?

http://www.rcbearings.com/saito-80-bearings/ Ask for Paul

Thanks, Ernie

Yes, I have been very busy lately. Our business has more than doubled this year! We must be doing something right!

Stainless steel bearings are hardened to the same range as bearing steel. so wear really isn't an issue.

My standard bearings are what everyone else calls high speed. We use the high end Japanese plastic retainers for most of them and we also now have European made SKF Explorer bearings available for most engines. SKF prices are about the same as their no-name OEM bearings.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 4:18 AM   
RC-Bearings



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Status: offline 		I would say that improper fitting can damage a good bearing faster than a poor quality bearing will go bad.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 4:21 AM   
RC-Bearings



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ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe

Stainless is harder but, more brittle than other steel alloys.  I went with stainless to reduce the chance of corrosion. 




Bearing stainless (440C) is hardened to the same range as bearing steel and is very ductile compared to high carbon steels.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 4:23 AM   
RC-Bearings



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

quote:

ORIGINAL: JNorton

I believe SS is softer than normal steels. Just my two cents.
John




quote:

ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe

Stainless is harder but, more brittle than other steel alloys.  I went with stainless to reduce the chance of corrosion. 





JNorton was right. SS is softer than carbon steel, but it is tougher. It resists corrosion & in rifle barrels, it also resists errosion in the throat from hot gasses. It can also be harder to machine.

High carbon steel is harder & more brittle than SS. I much prefer high carbon steel to SS if knife blades. SS is harder to get a good edge on & it doesn't stay sharp as long . When corrosion is an issue, like razor blades, SS cutting edges last longer.


The stainless used in knife blades is a very different type than used in bearings.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 5:38 AM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		>>> i purchased a turbo header prop for my saito fa 125, glow, and it stripped the threads on the crankcase. >>>

Turbo header "prop" or muffler? Stripped threads on the crankcase or in the head?

Previous threads on the fitting of new bearings: do you guys mean proper installation, getting them in straight, no galling, or do you mean actual tightness of fit as they sit in the crankcase? If they are too tight how do you correct that?

Thanks, Ernie

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 5:44 AM   
retransit



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quote:

ORIGINAL: orthobird

i purchased a turbo header prop for my saito fa 125, glow, and it stripped the threads on the crankcase. 


Turbo header prop? Crankcase threads stripped?

If you're referring to a Turbo header muffler stripping head exhaust threads, I'd say it was improper installation. I have a few and never encountered any problems. Just make sure that you thread them on carefully, that they are tight, not overly, or not loose either. You can't crank them down because you are dealing with aluminum.
Bob

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 5:47 AM   
retransit



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Status: offline 		"If they are too tight how do you correct that?"

With a 5 lb. sledge.

Bob

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 8:01 AM   
rowdyjoe


 

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Status: offline 		I bow to the knowledge of the metalurgists/experts on the issue of stainless steel hardness vs. carbon steel.  I speak from my 22 yrs experience in the aircraft mfg. industry but, not as an engineer.  We made BIG airplanes (C-17s, 747s, 767s, 757s, 777s, 787s, Gulfstream IV & V wings, B-2s) and some smaller ones ....FA-18 A, B, C, & E, F-5, T-38, and some UAVs.  Also made some rotary wing aircraft you may have heard of like the Blackhawk. 

I have to disagree concerning stainless firearms barrels and chambers.  I've had a few and still have one.  Chrome is the cure for chamber and barrel errosion and better functioning.  Stainless is more pourous, traps more crud, and requires more thorough cleaning IMO.  However, it is better for corrosion prevention but, not as accurate as a chrome lined bore and chamber.  On this issue I have 20 yrs experience as a military firearms specialist.

RJ



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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 2:26 PM   
Old Fart


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for clearing the air rc

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 3:28 PM   
rebranger


 

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Status: offline 		ANybody got an intake manifold for an older Saito 180? 
The nut / ferrel on Mine broke away from the cast aluminum pipe. J-B weld might hold it. Horizon has 'em on back order. 


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 6:25 PM   
rowdyjoe


 

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Status: offline 		You might try Advantage Hobby.  Copy the part no. from Horizon and paste it in the Advatange site search engine.

RJ



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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 6:55 PM   
airborne14830


 

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Status: offline 		I am about to install a perry V-30 fuel pump with my sa100. I have seen the diagram for installing the perry with with saito engines. My questions is the my tee does not have 3 straight legs, but instead the tee- leg going up into the perry pump has has bend that turns it to left, and folks think that this bend will interfere wtih the performance of the perry pump?

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 8:23 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings


quote:

ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

quote:

ORIGINAL: JNorton

I believe SS is softer than normal steels. Just my two cents.
John




quote:

ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe

Stainless is harder but, more brittle than other steel alloys.  I went with stainless to reduce the chance of corrosion. 





JNorton was right. SS is softer than carbon steel, but it is tougher. It resists corrosion & in rifle barrels, it also resists errosion in the throat from hot gasses. It can also be harder to machine.

High carbon steel is harder & more brittle than SS. I much prefer high carbon steel to SS if knife blades. SS is harder to get a good edge on & it doesn't stay sharp as long . When corrosion is an issue, like razor blades, SS cutting edges last longer.


The stainless used in knife blades is a very different type than used in bearings.



Yes the knife alloys would be different. I never meant to imply that they were similar.

However, your previous post tends to prove the softer (more ductile) nature of SS over high carbon even when treated to the same (Rocwwell?) hardness.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings

Bearing stainless (440C) is hardened to the same range as bearing steel and is very ductile compared to high carbon steels.


440 stanless is used in rifle barrels & its more ductile nature over 4140 makes for a better (heat errosion) wear properties, but the strength of the 4140 CM steel is actually stronger as far as bursting due to factors that might lead to catasrophic failure.

Again, not a direct comparison to SS use in bearings, but it still proves that SS is not always "stronger".

I don't believe the steel in rifle barrels is heat treated to enhance hardness/toughness. (unlike receivers & bolts, etc) The heat of hot propellant gases soon negate any advantages of heat treating. They are treated for stress releif however.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 8:49 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe


I have to disagree concerning stainless firearms barrels and chambers.  I've had a few and still have one.  Chrome is the cure for chamber and barrel errosion and better functioning.  Stainless is more pourous, traps more crud, and requires more thorough cleaning IMO.  However, it is better for corrosion prevention but, not as accurate as a chrome lined bore and chamber.  On this issue I have 20 yrs experience as a military firearms specialist.

RJ



I too prefer CM steel barrels, but many benchrest shooters swear by SS. They assert that the SS barrels last longer (accuracy) in their particular application.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/10/2012 10:22 PM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		What do you Saito 100 owners think of them? A real sweetheart like other Saito's such as the 82? The reason I asked is I am super happy with my 82 and 125 and was thinking of picking up a 100 for use on the 60-90 size profile planes. Reading the reviews most are positive but some say the 100 has excessive vibration (at idle I think) Immediately I thought, yeah learn how to tune them.

Thanks, Ernie

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/11/2012 12:10 AM   
mike early



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Status: offline 		Less vibration than the .82 and probably the 125 too.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/11/2012 12:14 AM   
lopflyers


 

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Status: offline 		I have two. They are my preferred. Starts w one flip, awesome iddle and no they don't vibrate

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/11/2012 1:25 AM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		Thanks guys. Looks like Saito is offering most everything in a gas version now. Maybe I'm behind the times but I'm still thinking that on the 82 or 100 size and real light profile planes that I don't want the weight of the ignition system. What do you guys think?

Thanks, Ernie

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/11/2012 1:30 AM   
rockin daddy


 

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Status: offline 		Hey JonC:

You sure do not need 30% Nitro glow fuel to make your Saito 100 run well !   10% is more than adequate.  Have been mixing my glow fuel for many years.   I f you don't care about the cost of 30% fuel then by all means burn it up.   I mix 10% Nitro fuel for less than $9 / gallon.   My fuel has 10% Nitro, 20% oil (10% castor oil and 10% Klotz Techniplate).   The castor oil is an excellent lubricant but requires that you use some automatic tramsmission oil as after run lubricant and preservative if the engine is not going to be run the next few days.   Nitromethane is the most expensive component to date, costing $40/ gal.  There are several synthetic oil's available that will work.   There are alot of fellows that use as little as 15% oil.   My Saito's and HP 49's have been running for 25 years now on 20% oil and the cylinders are bright and shinny showing no signs of wear.  I hear alot of "boo-hoos" because of the cost of glow fuel sometimes $16~$20 /gallon.  For that reason there has been a big switch to electric.  I have a few electrics but they just aren't the same.   Too quiet!  No motor sound !!    Four strokes sound great and are easy on fuel compaired to 2-cycle motors.   Many of the guys in our area clubs have gone to gas!  Gas motors perform well and are relatively inexpensive to operate.   I do not burn ethanol laced pump gasoline in my gas motors.  I use aviation fuel and good chain saw oil.   AV gas has tetraethyl lead in and preservatives in it that will not screw up your carburator.   At $5.50 a gallon, it is still the best pick for a good running 2-cycle gas engine.  On of these days I may try a FG series Saito 4 stroke that runs on gasoline/oil mix and has an ignition system.   Maybe when I grow up!! 

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/11/2012 2:37 AM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

Thanks guys. Looks like Saito is offering most everything in a gas version now. Maybe I'm behind the times but I'm still thinking that on the 82 or 100 size and real light profile planes that I don't want the weight of the ignition system. What do you guys think?

Thanks, Ernie



The weight of the ignition system will be offset by the reduced fuel requirements.

That being said, it will be cheaper & more reliable to just buy an FA version & convert W/a C&H conversion. Much better, easier to deal with system.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/11/2012 5:13 AM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		How do you install the magnet in the prop hub? Purchase that along with the ignition?

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/11/2012 9:38 AM   
Fred L



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Status: offline 		i have had several full scale pilots tell me that AV gas leaves alot of ash, i have used both AV gas and 93 oct pump gas and have seen no difference in performance. i always thought it was due to the low compression (9:1) of rc gas engines. correct me if i'm wrong, i live right next door to an airport and don't mind paying $5.50/gal, i just don't wanna hurt an expensive engine for a little more push. i have no use for the lead, the oil i use is Lucas semi-synthetic 2-stroke, it also has fuel stabilizers in it. there's no replacement for displacement, if the engine on my plane doesn't quit do it for me, i get one bigger engine. i run saito/ys 20/20 fuel in all my saitos, even though i mostly fly 3d, i do not push an engine by running hotter fuel.

< Message edited by Fred L -- 10/11/2012 10:07 AM >

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 10/11/2012 12:54 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

How do you install the magnet in the prop hub? Purchase that along with the ignition?



The beauty of the C&H systems is that the hall sensor is mounted fixed on the cam housing while the magnet is in an infinately adjustable magnet ring that afixes to the prop hub.

So much easier to set up & adjust.

Here is a thread I posted about CONVERTING MY FA91S TO C&H CDI.

An FA100 uses the same prop hub ring as an FA91S & the hall sensor mount for the FA300 fits the high case cam housing of the Fa100.

You should be able to get an entire system including a spark plug from C&H for about $125. Before you convert to gasoline, you might want to try just running CDI W/glow fuel. It will give you impressive fuel savings, (about 25%) much better handling chatacteristics & a power boost.

You will gain about 5%-6% more power W/CDI/glow fuel, while CDI/gasoline will result in about a 15% loss in power. over the standard glow ignition engine.

If you peruse Saito's power ratings, the FG engines put out about 15% less HP than their glow counterparts. (FA220 = 3.5 HP, FG36 = 3.0 HP) That is why Saito is increasing the displacement of the muti-cylinder FG series of engines over the FA versions. (50cc FA300, increased to 57cc FG57)

The power advantage of CDI/glow is 21% more power than CDI/gasoline for the same displacement engine.

The C&H WEBSITE does not list a conversion for the smaller Saioto engines, but if you call Adrian he will get back to you & set you up W/what you need.



< Message edited by SrTelemaster150 -- 10/11/2012 3:22 PM >

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