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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/14/2011 10:01 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: offline 		The issues I had with synthetic oils in glow fuel, was that the oil breaks down at a lower temperature, stops lubricating than Castor oil does and no protective varnish layer is there either. Then the synthetics seem to do nothing to stop the engine from rusting on the inside. Where castor oil sticks tenaciously to the metal surfaces and protect against corrosion the synthetics seem to let the metal corrode anyway thus not protecting the engine.

With castor oil if you had a lean condition in the air, you have time to go oops, and cut throttle and land before any damage is done. With synthetics as soon as you go oops, it is too late. So synthetics offer no forgiveness in these lean run situations.



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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/14/2011 10:39 PM   
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Status: offline 		I'm not advocating the use of Synthetic lube but wanted to try it and so far my experience has been fine but I use after run oil religiously. Afew years ago I bought an MDS 1.48 from a gent in Ariz. who bragged that it had never had any fuel through it except fuels with synthetic lube. When I received the engine it was stuck. I dismantled it and found the ring rusted to the cylinder and the entire inside of the engine dry as a bone except for the bottom rod bearing. This fuel seems to do better than that.

H-man I started to run this Saito I traded an Enya .90 for but hit a snag. It wouldn't accelerate beyond about 3,500 rpm not matter where I set the HS needle. I had an obvious Swiss cheese brain moment and took the carb apart only to find it was just fine. What wasn't fine was that the LS needle was way too far in. The small end of the LS needle was more than halfway into the spraybear. Picture #1 shows where it should be.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 12:18 AM   
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

I'm not advocating the use of Synthetic lube but wanted to try it and so far my experience has been fine but I use after run oil religiously. Afew years ago I bought an MDS 1.48 from a gent in Ariz. who bragged that it had never had any fuel through it except fuels with synthetic lube. When I received the engine it was stuck. I dismantled it and found the ring rusted to the cylinder and the entire inside of the engine dry as a bone except for the bottom rod bearing. This fuel seems to do better than that.

H-man I started to run this Saito I traded an Enya .90 for but hit a snag. It wouldn't accelerate beyond about 3,500 rpm not matter where I set the HS needle. I had an obvious Swiss cheese brain moment and took the carb apart only to find it was just fine. What wasn't fine was that the LS needle was way too far in. The small end of the LS needle was more than halfway into the spraybear. Picture #1 shows where it should be.

Luckily, I am having a great idle and transition with my Saito. But I have another 4-stroke that has given me fits since I bought it 2-years ago. The maximum rpm I can get with the break-in prop is 8500 and the idle is quite high. As I continue to adjust the LS needle to get the idle to go lower reliably, I end up with the LS needle almost all the way closed. When I end up with a good idle, the top end is gone down to 8000 rpm or lower. I might end up donating that engine to my son to use it as a learning tool.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 10:18 AM   
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Status: offline 		Can't believe this thing sold for $118

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180722086876?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 1:04 PM   
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ORIGINAL: AmishWarlord
Can't believe this thing sold for $118
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180722086876?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


I had that same thought, but then if you had a 1.50 engine and you needed a carb or something, it might be worth the cost. The cylinder/head unit is $100 and the carb itself costs $80.




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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 1:26 PM   
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Status: offline 		There's a thread next to this one talking about how hard two and fourstroke engines suck fuel and the merits/demerits of exhaust pressure for a positive fuel feed.I believe atmospheric pressure is a much greater factor but have yet to try it,any thoughts all?

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 1:52 PM   
hsukaria


 

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ORIGINAL: Old Fart

There's a thread next to this one talking about how hard two and fourstroke engines suck fuel and the merits/demerits of exhaust pressure for a positive fuel feed.I believe atmospheric pressure is a much greater factor but have yet to try it,any thoughts all?

Atmospheric pressure might be higher at the bottom of the world, where you are!

But seriously, atmospheric pressure is at the exhaust, intake, and open fuel tank. When you close the fuel tank and pressurize it with the exhaust, the absolute pressure at the tank and fuel inlet to the carb is higher than atmospheric pressure. That pressure increase is called the "gage" pressure.

absolute pressure = gage pressure + atmospheric pressure.

Gage pressure will vary with engine running condition, like throttle. Low throttle, low gage pressure. High (WOT) throttle, high gage pressure. I don't have numbers, but I imagine that gage presssure based on carb throttle varies a lot more than atmospheric pressure.

Ideally, if gage pressure is considerably higher than atmospheric pressure, then the total absolute pressure in the fuel system will be less affected by atmospheric pressure variations. That is one benefit of pumper carbs, they are less affected by atmospheric pressure variations.


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 2:22 PM   
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Status: offline 		The intake vacuum or low pressure pulses that occur in the intake on our single cylinder engines varies wildly with RPMs and load (bigger smaller props for example). At idle a manifold pressure gauge will show the individual low pressure suction pulses very well. As the RPMs increase the pulses get more weakly visible as the pulses blend together. Under a high load the manifold pressure tends to go up towards atmospheric pressure resulting in little to no fuel draw. Full throttle or WOT has a similar effect in that the low pressure zone or point moves towards the front of the throttle (barrel or plate).

I made a few videos a while back when I was explaining how the pulse pumps work on a 4 stroke engine and how they don't work under load at high speed. But you can see the effect in the videos below and how it would affect the fuel draw at the carb.

For example, here is the vacuum gauge on my scooter (when I was testing it out, with no bleed valve to smooth out the pulses) at idle:
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/earlwb/scooter/Roketa%20MC54-250B/videos/?action=view¤t=VacuumEngineIdling.mp4

here is the same engine in the scooter travelling up a hill at 50mph:
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/earlwb/scooter/Roketa%20MC54-250B/videos/?action=view¤t=VacuumAt35mph.mp4






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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 2:38 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: offline 		Some pics showing the effects on the carb.  Basically the low pressure area inside the manifold moves out from behind the carb to the air filter at WOT.  granted we don't have air filters on our engines so it moves to the entry point to the carb.








ref http://www.swaircraftappraisals.com/MeyersForum/Engine%20Info/Engine%20Operation/Manifold%20Pressure%20Sucks!.htm



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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 2:41 PM   
hsukaria


 

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ORIGINAL: earlwb

The intake vacuum or low pressure pulses that occur in the intake on our single cylinder engines varies wildly with RPMs and load (bigger smaller props for example). At idle a manifold pressure gauge will show the individual low pressure suction pulses very well. As the RPMs increase the pulses get more weakly visible as the pulses blend together. Under a high load the manifold pressure tends to go up towards atmospheric pressure resulting in little to no fuel draw. Full throttle or WOT has a similar effect in that the low pressure zone or point moves towards the front of the throttle (barrel or plate).

I made a few videos a while back when I was explaining how the pulse pumps work on a 4 stroke engine and how they don't work under load at high speed. But you can see the effect in the videos below and how it would affect the fuel draw at the carb.

For example, here is the vacuum gauge on my scooter (when I was testing it out, with no bleed valve to smooth out the pulses) at idle:
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/earlwb/scooter/Roketa%20MC54-250B/videos/?action=view¤t=VacuumEngineIdling.mp4

here is the same engine in the scooter travelling up a hill at 50mph:
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/earlwb/scooter/Roketa%20MC54-250B/videos/?action=view¤t=VacuumAt35mph.mp4






Yeah!! That vacuum sucks.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 3:01 PM   
hsukaria


 

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Status: offline 		So, the intake manifold pressure increases with WOT (goes from extra vacuum at idle to almost atmospheric at WOT). But the exhaust pressure also increases with throttle opening and load. That maintains a positive delta pressure (pressure difference) between the exhaust and the intake. So, pressurizing the fuel tank with the exhaust ensures a positive pressure to push the fuel from the tank to the carb, regardless of atmospheric pressure variation.

Now, atmospheric pressure variations will affect the intake pressure and the exhaust pressure in a similar way. What atmospheric pressure variation will do is increase or decrease the absolute pressure in the cylinder, causing variation in engine output power. That's why somebody living in a high altitude will have less power from their engine and typically has to install a larger engine for the same airplane.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 10:41 PM   
Old Fart


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the drawings earl,but i still struggle to understand the theory/practice and since i want to run a shotgun pipe on my 220 i need too.I read here somewhere that exhaust pressure to the tank was less than one psi whereas atmospheric pressure is nearly 15psi.Hope somebody can talk me thru that one.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 11:15 PM   
hsukaria


 

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ORIGINAL: Old Fart

Thanks for the drawings earl,but i still struggle to understand the theory/practice and since i want to run a shotgun pipe on my 220 i need too.I read here somewhere that exhaust pressure to the tank was less than one psi whereas atmospheric pressure is nearly 15psi.Hope somebody can talk me thru that one.

I don't know what the muffler pressure is, it will change with throttle setting. Somebody here might have good numbers for that. But when you connect the muffler pressure line to the tank, you are not swapping one pressure for the other. The muffler pressure is ADDED to atmospheric pressure at the tank.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/15/2011 11:33 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: offline 		The muffler pressure varies with the type of muffler or exhaust system used.
You add the muffler pressure to the ambient air pressure. So you would have between 1 to 4 psi extra pressure. 1 extra PSI is quite adequate for most purposes.


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/16/2011 12:05 AM   
hsukaria


 

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ORIGINAL: earlwb

The muffler pressure varies with the type of muffler or exhaust system used.
You add the muffler pressure to the ambient air pressure. So you would have between 1 to 4 psi extra pressure. 1 extra PSI is quite adequate for most purposes.


Thanks earlwb, putting actual numbers on the muffler pressure says it all.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/16/2011 1:12 PM   
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Status: offline 		Many t5hanks for the replies but i can;t think of another word right now except bollocks .The exhaust/pressure vent orofice thingy is usually positioned near the end of the exhaust pipe and i'm half betting that 15psi just outside the end of the pipe will have more influence than a maybe feeble 1psi the engine may blow past that fuel pressure nipple while you engine is supposedly peaked to the max and revving it's nuts off,as it should do

I'm interested in trying to find out,all please comment with your thoughts funny ones included please

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/16/2011 4:05 PM   
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I was 19 when I got my first Enya engine. It was a .29 R/C. I can't remember if it was ball bearing or not, but it came in a plastic box and included a high compression head. It cost a whopping $15 at the Base Hobby Shop, which good money back then (1966).

Anyway, coming from drag racing before the USAF, I immediately switched to the high compression head for more power. Not knowing that the high compression head was for no-nitro fuel, I immediately began flying the engine burning Fox Missile Mist. As you can imagine, those were some very rich, but HOT break-in flights. Somehow it survived and became one of the best engines that I've ever owned. Luck of the Irish, I suppose.


Ed, NM2K


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/16/2011 5:25 PM   
earlwb


 

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ORIGINAL: Old Fart

Many t5hanks for the replies but i can;t think of another word right now except bollocks .The exhaust/pressure vent orofice thingy is usually positioned near the end of the exhaust pipe and i'm half betting that 15psi just outside the end of the pipe will have more influence than a maybe feeble 1psi the engine may blow past that fuel pressure nipple while you engine is supposedly peaked to the max and revving it's nuts off,as it should do

I'm interested in trying to find out,all please comment with your thoughts funny ones included please


I think many people are confused here.
We have about 15 psi atmospheric pressure all around us, everywhere.
Inside the fuel tank with the engine not running, you still have that 15psi pressure too.
When the engine is running it adds more pressure on the tune of 1 to 5 PSi or more even to the fuel tank, So now you have 16psi to 19psi pressure inside the fuel tank, but outside of it all it is still the regular normal 15 psi air pressure.  So if we drop the 15psi normal pressure and just let it be a zero reference, then when the engine is running we are pressuring the fuel tank with something like 1 to 4psi or more pressure.

You can also thiink of it as all around us is a zero pressure reference, and anything that causes more pressure would be pressurizing it more. For example, usually the air pressure gauges like tire gauges and such show zero with normal atmospheric pressure. But you add 30 psi to the tire's pressure. technically there is 45psi in the tires but the guage doesn't read the normal 15psi atmispheric pressure as that is a zero reference.




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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/16/2011 7:08 PM   
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Status: offline 		Not to confuse the issue more, but would the variability of the muffler pressure cause tuning difficulty since it is varying from 1 to 5 psi? Is that why fancy engines use pumps? I have seen somebody selling fuel pressure regulators also, but they seemed expensive and complicated. Maybe that is what O.F. was leading up to.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/16/2011 8:07 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: offline 		No, we have numerous different kinds of mufflers. A low resistance muffler would have less pressure and a high resistance muffler more pressure.  The average pressure increase is typically around 1 to 2 psi. But some mufflers have more and others might even have less. Some tuned mufflers or tuned pipes can even boost the pressure a lot more.
The low resistance muffler is more noisy and the higher resistance muffler more quiet. But we have a almost infinite variety of mufflers in any case,
Basically one muffler might have 1psi of back pressure and another might have 4 psi of back pressure. But yes as the engine speed increases or decreases there is some variability in pressure. But the fuel fitting tends to act as a resistor or slow bleed valve and smooth out the variabiiity. You can negate, to some extent, the bleed valve effect by using a larger fuel fitting on the muffler with a larger hole in it. This can be advantageous in some cases where the engine tends to load up at idle when you chop the throttle quickly and the fuel tank is still pressurized. This can also work on some engines through the mid range too, as you give it throttle, it has a delayed action effect on pressurizing the fuel tank, thus the engine runs a bit lean in the mid range momentarily.

Years ago, before mufflers, the engine's carbs had smaller intake venturi's on them. But as the engines evolved over time, the carbs became larger and the intake venturi became larger as well. That resulted in more poor fuel draw and now engines have to have muffler pressure to aid in drawing fuel.



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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/16/2011 8:22 PM   
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If i remember correctly.


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/16/2011 11:42 PM   
hsukaria


 

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Status: offline 		The smaller carb venturis might provide better fuel draw, but also cause power loss since the lower intake pressure causes a lower cylinder pressure. That is also why at high altitudes, the atmospheric pressure is lower than 14.7 psi, thus causing a reduction in power.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/17/2011 12:22 AM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks everyone for your comments it's given me something to figure on for a while.Given that i definitely want to run the shotgun pipe i might fit a perry vp20 pump or a cline regulater if i can get one over here.Just wondering if a fuel pressure nipple on a short shotgun pipe would be sufficient,i'm not looking forward to a lean run with the 220

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/17/2011 12:42 AM   
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Status: offline 		I've got a 100 with a pressure fitting on a rcspecialties 90 deg adapter with only the stock manifold screwed into it. The engine runs fine from spins to hovers. I can't be getting much pressure that way. BTW a cline regulator will only lower the pressure.

I am debating using a vp20 pump so I can move the tank closer to the cg.

Cory


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/17/2011 3:10 AM   
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Status: offline 		My poor old Enya R 1.20 engine uses a simple kludged straight pipe and at the end of the pipe there is some holes and it is pinched on the tip as well. That seems to provide adequate muffler pressure for my engine to run in the plane it is in. I did not make this kludged exhaust system, someone else did before I bought the engine and plane. I actually have a proper exhaust pipe and muffler to go on the engine, but since it does work and it isn't all that bad looking assembled and covered up on the bipe, I left it as is.








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