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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/19/2011 1:09 PM   
Hobbsy



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Status: offline 		The carb in this case sees no pressure, the pressure is between the regulator valve and the tank. The carb still operates in response to low pressure pulses caused by the venturi action. The regulator responds to the same low pressure pulses, the demand.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/19/2011 2:47 PM   
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Status: offline 		Ok, now I understood it! Thank you Hobbsy!

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/19/2011 3:56 PM   
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Status: offline 		Cline, or Iron bay, or OS carb regulators supply fuel to the carb at slightly below atmospheric pressure. Study the design. I was also under the impression that YS four stroke fuel injection systems are simply demand regulators. This is NOT the case. Carefully study the design. YS uses mechanical fuel injection systems. Rather simple, but effective for glow fuel.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/19/2011 5:57 PM   
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Status: online 		Some people bias the regulator atmospheric pressure reference with exhaust pressure which gives a positive pressure related to engine speed and power output. Pe Reivers did some of this.

He made his own pump/regulators by converting old Walbro carbs.

http://prme.nl/home/regulated_fuelsupply/a_regulated_fuel_supply.html



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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/21/2011 12:55 PM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks for the link i'm reading it now,cheers

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/21/2011 4:50 PM   
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Status: offline 		Ok, so there are good options regarding pumps and regulators. But when do you need them? What symptoms or problems with the engine operation cause someone to need more than just exhaust pressure to the tank?

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/21/2011 7:12 PM   
w8ye



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Status: online 		I think the discussion came up as a result of someone wanting to run gas in a glow Saito carb?

I have not biased a regulator with muffler pressure. I've always found regulation to be adequate when just using atmospheric static pressure.

Gasoline runs twice the air/fuel ratio as glow fuel. Therefore the flow of gasoline is more sensitive because you are using less of it. Therefore the need for a constant pressure.

A pump and regulator would be indicated on a glow engine when you are running a tank not directly behind and centered on the needle valve or when you are not running muffler pressure to the tank.


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/21/2011 8:14 PM   
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Status: online 		To me, the only true fuel injection is direct injection. Yes, what some folks call fuel injection is not carburetion, but it isn't true fuel injection either. We need another name. Any suggestions?


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/21/2011 8:31 PM   
w8ye



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Status: online 		I remember some years ago about references to a "Pressure Carb"


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/21/2011 9:22 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NM2K

To me, the only true fuel injection is direct injection. Yes, what some folks call fuel injection is not carburetion, but it isn't true fuel injection either. We need another name. Any suggestions?


Ed Cregger



In the auto sector, fuel injected into the manifold by a single injector was/is called manifold injection. Fuel injection by multiple timed injectors just outside of the intake valve was/is called port injection. Fuel injected by separate injectors directly into the combustion chamber is called direct injection. I think VW calls the latter TDI, and is what Diesel engines employ.

At least that has been my understanding. Comments anyone?

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/21/2011 11:17 PM   
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Status: offline 		Manifold injection was also called Throttle Body Injection (TBI). It was an improvement over a carburator because of improved fuel control and does not use a venturi. A venturi causes a vacuum in the intake manifold for fuel suction, but also causes power loss because it lowers the cylinder pressure.

Port Fuel Injection injects fuel just upstream of the intake valves. It is an improvement in performance and emissions over throttle body injection. But still suffers from fuel puddles accumulating on the back of the intake valve.

Direct fuel injection started out in diesels, but is now also used in the latest gasoline engines. It provides the best fuel control, and power. The biggest benefit of gasoline direct injection is that when the fuel is injected at the compression stroke, it actaully causes a rapid cool down of the compressed air, allowing for reduced pumping losses by allowing the air to cool down and condense right before combustion.

As mentioned before, the fuel injection in model engines would be the throttle body (or manifold) injection. If done properly, besides helping with fuel control, it can help with increasing power by eliminating the carb venturi.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/21/2011 11:45 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hsukaria
As mentioned before, the fuel injection in model engines would be the throttle body (or manifold) injection. If done properly, besides helping with fuel control, it can help with increasing power by eliminating the carb venturi.


Actually they did that with the glow engines already. The combat, speed and hi-perf FF engines used bladders that you inflate with fuel. The bladders developed a lot of pressure too. The intakes on the engines then used a large intake hole with no venturi, since they don't draw fuel the intake can be made larger, and the needle valve assembly usually wound up being a 1/2 length/size unit on one side and it sprayed the fuel directly into the intake with no obstructions inside.
The pylon racers did it to some extent as well (at least until idle rules in some classes were implemented).

OS went all the way and marketed a real fuel injected 4 stroke engine for a while, with a real fuel pump, fuel injector and a ECU unit.




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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 1:46 AM   
hsukaria


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: earlwb


quote:

ORIGINAL: hsukaria
As mentioned before, the fuel injection in model engines would be the throttle body (or manifold) injection. If done properly, besides helping with fuel control, it can help with increasing power by eliminating the carb venturi.


Actually they did that with the glow engines already. The combat, speed and hi-perf FF engines used bladders that you inflate with fuel. The bladders developed a lot of pressure too. The intakes on the engines then used a large intake hole with no venturi, since they don't draw fuel the intake can be made larger, and the needle valve assembly usually wound up being a 1/2 length/size unit on one side and it sprayed the fuel directly into the intake with no obstructions inside.
The pylon racers did it to some extent as well (at least until idle rules in some classes were implemented).

OS went all the way and marketed a real fuel injected 4 stroke engine for a while, with a real fuel pump, fuel injector and a ECU unit.




I've been told about the OS fuel injection before. I bet it wasn't cheap, but OS is never cheap.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 1:57 AM   
flyingagin



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quote:

ORIGINAL: hsukaria


quote:

ORIGINAL: earlwb


quote:

ORIGINAL: hsukaria
As mentioned before, the fuel injection in model engines would be the throttle body (or manifold) injection. If done properly, besides helping with fuel control, it can help with increasing power by eliminating the carb venturi.


Actually they did that with the glow engines already. The combat, speed and hi-perf FF engines used bladders that you inflate with fuel. The bladders developed a lot of pressure too. The intakes on the engines then used a large intake hole with no venturi, since they don't draw fuel the intake can be made larger, and the needle valve assembly usually wound up being a 1/2 length/size unit on one side and it sprayed the fuel directly into the intake with no obstructions inside.
The pylon racers did it to some extent as well (at least until idle rules in some classes were implemented).

OS went all the way and marketed a real fuel injected 4 stroke engine for a while, with a real fuel pump, fuel injector and a ECU unit.




I've been told about the OS fuel injection before. I bet it wasn't cheap, but OS is never cheap.

I have have looked but have not seen or heard anymore than what I have seen here. Not interested in owning one just curious. I like motors. Any I only have a rubber band motor budget
pics? links? data?


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 2:10 AM   
Hobbsy



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Status: offline 		Test post

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 12:02 PM   
Old Fart


 

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Status: offline 		I'm sure happy i read all these posts it's a lively conversation.I'm going to start off running a vp20 pump and exhaust pressure.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 12:24 PM   
earlwb


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flyingagin
I have have looked but have not seen or heard anymore than what I have seen here. Not interested in owning one just curious. I like motors. Any I only have a rubber band motor budget
pics? links? data?


It is pretty awesome in that the ECU controls the engine, so there are no needle valves to adjust. If it wasn't for the cost, it might have revolutionized the glow engine market especially with beginners.

OS advertisement for them http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/2007spring-summer/fs200sfi/index.htm

OS had a .91, 1.60 and a 2.00 fuel injected engine.
Tower Hobbies still has some parts even.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0005p?&I=OSMG0941&P=OW



OS had a 2 stroke 1.60 with FI:




OS FS091FI in use.  it is not mine though. Sorry.





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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 1:34 PM   
w8ye



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Status: online 		Life wasn't so simple as fly out of the box with the OS FI engines as you had to follow a procedure to establish the limits of the fuel mixture algorithm about as often as you would need to adjust the needle valve on a regular carb engine. You would get along with the same limits all summer but in the fall as the weather started getting a little cooler, you would have to set the limits up again.


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 1:46 PM   
flyingagin



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Status: offline 		WOW those are some awesome engines> Beautiful
OH well rubber band motors for me.
I will stay with my Saito .65 and ST, and OS that I have.


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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 3:59 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: w8ye
Life wasn't so simple as fly out of the box with the OS FI engines as you had to follow a procedure to establish the limits of the fuel mixture algorithm about as often as you would need to adjust the needle valve on a regular carb engine. You would get along with the same limits all summer but in the fall as the weather started getting a little cooler, you would have to set the limits up again.



But it was a really nice and innovative idea anyway, right;

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 4:02 PM   
hsukaria


 

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Status: offline 		Those fuel injected engines are awesome. But I'm sure only the professional competition guys would spend that kind of money (or you are crazy about engines).

I'm just happy I was able to replace a piston ring on one of my cheaper 2-strokes last weekend. I will bench run it soon to break it in. Simple pleasures.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 5:01 PM   
Hobbsy



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Status: offline 		As you can see my pictures posted some time after I actually posted them. The YS 1.15 finally has the regulator where it should have been all along. The 1.70 has the fuel injection pump on the intake pushrod and the mixture is controlled by the carb barrel

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 5:20 PM   
hsukaria


 

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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

As you can see my pictures posted some time after I actually posted them. The YS 1.15 finally has the regulator where it should have been all along. The 1.70 has the fuel injection pump on the intake pushrod and the mixture is controlled by the carb barrel

The picture on the right has a servo pigtail wire. Does that connect to a receiver and eliminates the throttle servo? The FI also controls the throttle?

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 5:26 PM   
Hobbsy



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Status: offline 		I suspect that would be a throttle position sensor to make the fuel injection more accurate, that's just a guess though.

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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO ! - 9/22/2011 5:31 PM   
Hobbsy



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Status: offline 		PS. I just did some more digging and that engine is a new 1.75 that is, "comming soon" there is no explanation for the wire.

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