RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barbecue, etc.  
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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barbe... - 9/8/2005 3:19:05 AM   
twinturbostang



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Yeah, I know how the prop sizing goes. Small and high rpm for speed and aerobatics. Large and low rpm for 3D. But I definitely don't plan on doing 3D stuff for a while. I've got a LONG ways to go before I can do maneuvers like that. And right now, sport flyers and aerobatics interest me more than 3D does anyways. I mean, if I really want to hover, I can just pull out my heli. So I think I'll be ok.

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/8/2005 2:15:02 PM   
Matt Kirsch



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Wow, quite a thread

That LiPoly and brushless motor will turn it into a real barn-burner, that's for sure.

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, what you're seeing with the battery life and overall performance is pretty much exactly what I'd expect from that setup. Battery's not quite robust enough to run a 400 motor... You'd probably see better performance with the EPS300C and that battery. It's lighter and spins a larger prop at a lower RPM. With my E-starter, I was regularly getting 12 minute flights on 700mAh AAA NiMH cells because the Amp draw was much lower.

If you ever get the opportunity to fly in a full-scale Cessna or other small aircraft, you'll learn all about coordinated turns, using rudder and ailerons together to "keep the ball in the center." Coordinated turns are mandatory in full-scale aircraft; bank-n-yank is VERY uncomfortable for the occupants of the plane. Most models exhibit that "tail dragging" behaviour to some degree too, though scale models like the Piper Cub, and E-Starter (a semi-scale Cessna 152) exhibit it more than others. Don't worry about it; it's normal, and learning to make all your turns coordinated is a GOOD thing. Looks pretty in the air, too

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/8/2005 2:45:14 PM   
twinturbostang



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt Kirsch

Wow, quite a thread

That LiPoly and brushless motor will turn it into a real barn-burner, that's for sure.

lol I hope it doesn't rip the wings off of it!

quote:

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, what you're seeing with the battery life and overall performance is pretty much exactly what I'd expect from that setup. Battery's not quite robust enough to run a 400 motor... You'd probably see better performance with the EPS300C and that battery. It's lighter and spins a larger prop at a lower RPM. With my E-starter, I was regularly getting 12 minute flights on 700mAh AAA NiMH cells because the Amp draw was much lower.

You're saying the 300C would actually outperform the 400 as well? Interesting. The AAA cells are obviously just not big enough to give the amps that the 400 motor requires. I've gotten a little better at throttle management now. Not running it WOT the whole time. And that seems to help. Battery is still pretty warm/hot after a flight. But not "scalding" hot as before.

quote:

If you ever get the opportunity to fly in a full-scale Cessna or other small aircraft, you'll learn all about coordinated turns, using rudder and ailerons together to "keep the ball in the center." Coordinated turns are mandatory in full-scale aircraft; bank-n-yank is VERY uncomfortable for the occupants of the plane. Most models exhibit that "tail dragging" behaviour to some degree too, though scale models like the Piper Cub, and E-Starter (a semi-scale Cessna 152) exhibit it more than others. Don't worry about it; it's normal, and learning to make all your turns coordinated is a GOOD thing. Looks pretty in the air, too

I have been in full scale Cessna's before, although not in a long time. I actually got to do a take off once. Very interesting feeling. You MUST correct for torque upon full throttle by giving it a bunch of rudder (steering input). Otherwise you will run off the side of the runway! No that didn't happen. But it would have if I had not corrected for it. Back to the models... I'm learning how to do coordinated turns. I've found that high bank turns require more rudder input. But sometimes I'm not sure what to do. If I do a moderately high bank turn, the tail will drop some. For instance in a right turn, the tail drops, so I give it right rudder to bring the tail back up. But in the mean time, the plane is slipping down, loosing altitude due to the decrease in lift. That would mean I need to give left rudder to hold altitude. But that will just worsen the planes attitude/orientation in the turn. Hmm. Maybe I need to work more on coordinating bank angle with turn rate. ie: maybe more elevator input is required at that particular bank angle. I may be inadvertently doing a partial knife edge (high bank angle and low turn rate). I noticed that when I do nice gradual low bank turns, it looks a whole lot better. Much more graceful.

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/9/2005 12:32:55 AM   
Flypaper 2



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Stang:
If it's slipping in the turn, either back off on the bank angle or more up elevator. Good thing we're not sitting in it or we'd need a couple of barf bags

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/9/2005 2:11:42 AM   
twinturbostang



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Haha. Oh, the inside of the canopy would be quite a mess by now!

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/9/2005 4:01:08 AM   
TManiaci



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Yea, and adding a little power into the turn helps hold altitude as the drag increases from all the controls digging into the wind and the lift is lost from the banking attitude.

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/9/2005 5:50:43 AM   
twinturbostang



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TManiaci

Yea, and adding a little power into the turn helps hold altitude as the drag increases from all the controls digging into the wind and the lift is lost from the banking attitude.

Yeah, that would work. Except that a lot of the time I'm still at full throttle.

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/9/2005 1:24:20 PM   
Matt Kirsch



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Simple rule of thumb is, the higher the bank, the tighter the turn. If it's falling out of the sky, you banked too much for the size of the turn you're making. Either roll out to a less steep bank, or tighten the turn by giving more up elevator.

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/16/2005 5:33:18 AM   
twinturbostang



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Hmm, well this is a bummer. I was hoping to post tomorrow that the plane is up and flying with a new power combo. But, there was an "incident". First the combo...

- Dymond Tornado 400F outrunner and 25A esc combo
- Dymond 2100 3S 12C Lipo

I built a motor mount for the motor using spruce sticks and ply construction. See picture below. Got it all set up and bench tested the motor to make sure it was turning in the right direction. Had to swap two wires and then I did some power testing. This is where things go bad real quick. Had it at 1/2 throttle and advanced to full. The motor had SO MUCH torque that it ripped the motor mount apart!! Seemed like stuff was flying all over the place (pieces of the mount). I yanked the throttle back to min and the motor stopped. It had wound all the wires into a nice weave. But it appears there was no damage, aside from the wrecked motor mount that is. It's a GOOD THING I was being very careful during the first test. I had the motor/prop turned away from me and at arms length. That could have been real bad otherwise.

Anyway, I'm at a loss right now. I had no idea that itty bitty motor would have so much torque! After looking at the pictures of the mount, I see I severely compromised the strength of the mount by trimming the top supports. That was necessary because I don't have much room inside the cowl. So, do you guy have any ideas for building a stronger mount?


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< Message edited by twinturbostang -- 9/16/2005 5:35:21 AM >


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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/16/2005 5:59:51 AM   
TManiaci



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twinturbo-twisting-stang,

Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floor .

Sorry, I had to find humor in that one... LOL.

Well, it is obvious to me that the weakness is the four struts did not penetrate the fuse. To take the torque, you need to anchor the bars at least 1/2 inch into the fuse. I used Gorilla Glue on the EXTRA MOTOR MOUNT to fill the hole well. It grows and spews out as it expands, then sets really well.

Just make the bars longer, drill some holes in the foam and push the bars in with epoxy or gorilla glue. Make a couple gussets on the mount to strengthen there. That will make it tough.

< Message edited by TManiaci -- 9/16/2005 6:03:10 AM >


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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/16/2005 6:06:44 AM   
TManiaci



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BTW: You should put some 1/4" holes in that motor mount to get airflow into the inlets in the front of the motor. You don't want it to overheat...

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/16/2005 2:37:59 PM   
twinturbostang



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I guess I can laugh at it now. But it sure wasn't funny when it was happening! Good thing I was as cautious about it as possible, othewise it might have been a trip to the ER.

But, I think you're right. I need to build a mount more like what you have. What I really need is an aluminum front mount like what yours. Then I could use dowels and reduce the width of the front mount, hopefully fitting inside the smallish cowl. And of course extending the dowels through the rear plate and into the fuse. Question: is the bolt pattern on these motors standardized? I need to know if I can go to the lhs and get a mount that would fit my motor. It looks like the four screw holes are at two different mount widths. Didn't know if this was normal or not.

BTW, I'm not really impressed with the Dymond 25A esc. It seems rather big and heavy (relatively speaking) and there is only one thing you can program, which is the brake. And actually, this may have been part of my problem. I left the "brake" at the stock setting of off, thinking that it was exactly what it sounded like... a brake for when you close the throttle. BUT, it also enables a soft start (they all this a brake?!?!). I noticed that the motor was hard to start sometimes. If I didn't advance the throttle really slowly it wouldn't start the motor. It would just jitter and make noise. It could be that if I had selected the brake, there would have been less stress on the motor mount. But oh well, I'll build it better and stronger.

< Message edited by twinturbostang -- 9/16/2005 2:38:13 PM >


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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/16/2005 5:30:57 PM   
TManiaci



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torque-twisting-'stang,

Yes, that plate is a standard outrunner adpater plate. The pattern is from the AXI 22XX line of motors, which has more-or-less become common. If you get a backplate for a AXI 22XX, it will bolt right up.

That Dymond Sky Advantage ESC is actually rated for 35 amps for 10 seconds, so it is strong. Yea, it weighs 22 grams, a little heavier than Pheonix 25 at 17 grams ($65), but a Jeti 30 amp is 28 grams ($45). So it's in the ballbark. No, it is not galmorus with features, but consider you bought a motor and got and ESC for free. Comparable name-brand motors sell for over $70 alone.

At 2250 Kv on 11.1V, that motor is going to need a small prop, so take care not to overload. My guess is APC 8x3.8 to 8x4.7 SF or an 8x5E is the right starting point. And YES, they are "torqu-ie"... you got alotta power there in a small package.

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RE: E-Starter woes. Short flight time, battery barb... - 9/16/2005 6:32:14 PM   
twinturbostang



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